Author Topic: Screwings or avoidable deaths  (Read 7725 times)

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Offline mrvaya

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Re: Screwings or avoidable deaths
« Reply #15 on: August 15, 2014, 11:26:26 AM »
The middle of the 4th girder can be a problem during transitions after bottom hammer. If you jump left to go over approaching barrels and Kong simultaneously throws a wild barrel, you're dead before you touch the ground. This scenario will rarely occur in games where you are running boards though.

Thanks for explaining Wes. I know that true screwings are rare - that is why I ask about how many there truly are. Can you safely dodge/avoid all wild barrels? on 5th girder? What about when you grab upper hammer?

As far as my knowledge goes, one can wait in the "safy spot" (only safe if you are capable of dodging the wild barrels) uphill of the long unbroken ladder between 4th an 5th girder. When the time is correct in kongs cycle, one can safely get to the hammer, but at that moment he is picking up a new (possible wild) barrel. Here you have to choose between waiting another kong-cycle to grab hammer (and perhaps dodge if a wild barrel comes at you - if that is possible?) or grabbing the hammer immediately. Now equipped with the hammer, you are more protected - but not completely if the timing is right (or wrong  ;D) and a wild barrel (or bomb) hits you before you reach under kongs foot (safe spot).

Perhaps I overlook a technique... but aren't we all exposed to screwings at that short time from hammer to safespot?
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Offline mrvaya

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Re: Screwings or avoidable deaths
« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2014, 11:37:57 AM »
Thanks for explaining.
... the red spot on the 5th girder is bad because he can drill you in the back, as you head right with a hammer (before l=5 difficulty).
But not if you turn left or are to the right of paulines ladder - right?

Lastly, the spot by the broken ladder on the right of the 4th girder is only relevant if you ascended from the short ladder on the right of the 3rd (dont do it when running boards unless the fire ( jerks ( <Pigger> ) ) forces you over there), or as you already mentioned, when things get hairy and you need more time.

Ahh - ok. I almost never do that (probably because I still do not point press) - thats why have had to ask :)

You have a green spot under the hammer... can you safely avoid wild barrels there (se my other question in this thread).
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Offline mrvaya

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Re: Screwings or avoidable deaths
« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2014, 11:51:18 AM »
But not if you turn left or are to the right of paulines ladder - right?

Sorry that I quote myself - but I just tested this with the wild barrel hack and you are not safe just turning left - you need to be at or to the right side of paulines ladder to be safe but it seems you can reach this place between each kong-cycle (and barrel-smash). (EDIT: I really don't know about this ATM. I did not take into account the different timings there sometimes are).
« Last Edit: August 15, 2014, 12:06:01 PM by mrvaya »
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Offline lakeman421

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Re: Screwings or avoidable deaths
« Reply #18 on: August 15, 2014, 12:19:39 PM »
When it comes to early wild barrels the times you are gonna get screwed is if he throws one at you while you are mid jump or climbing a ladder because the timing is just bad and its impossible to avoid.  Rivets have the true screwings when it comes to things like them swarming to the left right off the bat and not even letting you grab a hammer.  It sometimes happens on pies as well if they feel like they all want to come down giving you no place to go.  I am trying to go for max points so I tend to try to thread the needle to not lose points and it does cost me lives.  But playing for survival you should be able to get out of it most of the time.
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Offline mrvaya

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Re: Screwings or avoidable deaths
« Reply #19 on: August 15, 2014, 12:34:04 PM »
When it comes to early wild barrels the times you are gonna get screwed is if he throws one at you while you are mid jump or climbing a ladder because the timing is just bad and its impossible to avoid.  Rivets have the true screwings when it comes to things like them swarming to the left right off the bat and not even letting you grab a hammer.  It sometimes happens on pies as well if they feel like they all want to come down giving you no place to go.  I am trying to go for max points so I tend to try to thread the needle to not lose points and it does cost me lives.  But playing for survival you should be able to get out of it most of the time.
Thanks for answering Robbie (I'm a fan of yours and your major achievements  ;D). Did you say "early wild barrels" because I asked about level 3/4 barrels - or because L5+ wild barrels-deaths are all avoidable?
If you only get screwed (on barrels) by climbing or jumping when running boards - how do you avoid exposing yourself when grabbing upper hammer?
« Last Edit: August 15, 2014, 12:37:07 PM by mrvaya »
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Offline f_symbols

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Re: Screwings or avoidable deaths
« Reply #20 on: August 15, 2014, 01:07:50 PM »
You have a green spot under the hammer... can you safely avoid wild barrels there (se my other question in this thread).

If you are standing centered under the hammer, you can not be hit by a level 5+ wild barrel, standing here on levels 1-4 can be risky because his wild barrels can hit you. Because you are so close to kong, you will have little time to react with anything other than a walljump (which is not necessarily safe depending on WB trajectory or the positions of trailing barrels).  Whenever you grab this top hammer, be sure to stand under it (do not try to cheat and grab it from the right side).   <Pigger>

I would recommend that you watch the "donkeykonggenius" barrel training videos, with the premise that a lot of the material in those tutorials is way above and beyond what you need for "running the boards"
« Last Edit: August 15, 2014, 01:09:28 PM by f_symbols »
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Offline mrvaya

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Re: Screwings or avoidable deaths
« Reply #21 on: August 15, 2014, 01:21:24 PM »
If you are standing centered under the hammer, you can not be hit by a level 5+ wild barrel, standing here on levels 1-4 can be risky because his wild barrels can hit you. Because you are so close to kong, you will have little time to react with anything other than a walljump (which is not necessarily safe depending on WB trajectory or the positions of trailing barrels).  Whenever you grab this top hammer, be sure to stand under it (do not try to cheat and grab it from the right side).   <Pigger>

I would recommend that you watch the "donkeykonggenius" barrel training videos, with the premise that a lot of the material in those tutorials is way above and beyond what you need for "running the boards"
Thanks Ethan. I did not know that it will become a safespot under the hammer at L5+. Very valuable. Sorry if this is too basic stuff that I am asking about. I made a video of me getting "screwed" on level 3:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTJk1dVx2Ls

How do one avoid that?

Probably a good advise to take a look at Coreys videos again. I've seem them a long time ago but skipped a parts about grouping since I though I would be able to KS before grouping/pointpressing. Now is probably a good time see them again. Guess there could be a lot of important stuff that I missed the first time where I was even less knowledgable  ;D

Thanks you all for being so helpful and patient with me.  :D :D
« Last Edit: August 15, 2014, 01:23:04 PM by mrvaya »
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Offline lakeman421

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Re: Screwings or avoidable deaths
« Reply #22 on: August 15, 2014, 02:37:28 PM »
When it comes to early wild barrels the times you are gonna get screwed is if he throws one at you while you are mid jump or climbing a ladder because the timing is just bad and its impossible to avoid.  Rivets have the true screwings when it comes to things like them swarming to the left right off the bat and not even letting you grab a hammer.  It sometimes happens on pies as well if they feel like they all want to come down giving you no place to go.  I am trying to go for max points so I tend to try to thread the needle to not lose points and it does cost me lives.  But playing for survival you should be able to get out of it most of the time.
Thanks for answering Robbie (I'm a fan of yours and your major achievements  ;D). Did you say "early wild barrels" because I asked about level 3/4 barrels - or because L5+ wild barrels-deaths are all avoidable?
If you only get screwed (on barrels) by climbing or jumping when running boards - how do you avoid exposing yourself when grabbing upper hammer?
Levels 1-4 have the more unpredictable wild barrels.  Once you get to level 5 you can tell where they will end up and dying from those will be your fault 99% of the time.  It takes some playing and experience to know where level 5 wild barrels will end up. The photo with the safe spots draws a good example of how to avoid them.   The fourth girder can be difficult if you jump at the wrong time or walking under Kong that is why watching Kong is a very important part of the barrel board. 
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Offline mrvaya

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Re: Screwings or avoidable deaths
« Reply #23 on: August 15, 2014, 05:28:13 PM »
Ok guys - so to sum it up:

Level 1-4 (primarily type 1 and 2 wild barrels): Few screwings are possible - especially on level 3-4 of the barrel board. However fireballs on rivets and conveyor are slow and screwings are very rare on these boards.

Level 5+ (type 3 wild barrels): The wild barrels are less aggressive and easy to avoid for the trained player which is why screwings should be very rare. However the fireballs become faster og there are a few screwings to be seen on the rivet board - and to a lesser extent on the conveyor boards.

Agree?
« Last Edit: August 15, 2014, 05:31:36 PM by mrvaya »
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Offline VON

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Re: Screwings or avoidable deaths
« Reply #24 on: August 15, 2014, 06:11:24 PM »
My 2 cents...

Levels 1 through 4 are an annoyance: maximizing points is highly luck dependent (especially on the rivets), and sometimes you'll eat a murder barrel in the face and there just ain't squat you can do about it.  Levels 1 through 4 are not the real game, they are akin to playing a slot machine.

Levels 5 plus are entirely skill based, and you should never die here, ever.  There still exists an element of luck to the amount of points you can harvest on these levels, but no amount of bad randomness should ever lead to death.

EDIT:  Actually, saying never is not accurate.  Every once in a blue moon you'll encounter a pie factory that is literally not passable because fireballs will block both ladders until the timer expires.  It's an extremely rare occurrence and no such obstacle exists on any of the other boards.  The next closest thing is having to deal with a derpy freezer on the 6th girder of a barrel board, but that situation is passable and it's likely your fault when it happens anyway.

2nd EDIT:  My belief that levels 5 plus are almost entirely skill-dependent is part of what drives me insane when players talk about their games that ended at 400K being on X.XX pace.  Games that end at 400K are on 400K pace, and that's it - it's really that simple.  You died, get over it.  You didn't get screwed, and you weren't just a couple unlucky deaths away from actually achieving X.XX pace, you weren't even close.  You died before even making it half-way through the game, so shut up about it, no one is impressed that you had a couple above average levels in your below average game.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2014, 06:54:02 PM by VON »
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Offline marinomitch13

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Re: Screwings or avoidable deaths
« Reply #25 on: August 15, 2014, 09:38:52 PM »
Ok guys - so to sum it up:

Level 1-4 (primarily type 1 and 2 wild barrels): Few screwings are possible - especially on level 3-4 of the barrel board. However fireballs on rivets and conveyor are slow and screwings are very rare on these boards.

Level 5+ (type 3 wild barrels): The wild barrels are less aggressive and easy to avoid for the trained player which is why screwings should be very rare. However the fireballs become faster og there are a few screwings to be seen on the rivet board - and to a lesser extent on the conveyor boards.

Agree?

Agreed! This is spot on! However, realize that "screwings" can come in the form of death-causing screwings (these are the one's people usually mean -especially when talking about just running boards) and pace-screwings (these become more prevalent the higher the pace you play at)... so, "screwings" are technically subjective to the pace being played at. For the purposes of death-causing screwings, your description is nearly 100% accurate. I'm convinced that a perfectly sound player should probably be able to KS nearly every time or every other time they run boards.
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Offline marinomitch13

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Re: Screwings or avoidable deaths
« Reply #26 on: August 15, 2014, 11:28:37 PM »
And, I'll post this again for anyone who maybe hasn't seen this yet (I believe I've posted it in two other areas on DKF before), but this is a quick way to conceptualize the possible ways a Wild Barrel may bounce:

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Offline ChrisP

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Re: Screwings or avoidable deaths
« Reply #27 on: August 16, 2014, 12:03:46 AM »
Levels 5 plus are entirely skill based, and you should never die here, ever.  There still exists an element of luck to the amount of points you can harvest on these levels, but no amount of bad randomness should ever lead to death.

EDIT:  Actually, saying never is not accurate.  Every once in a blue moon you'll encounter a pie factory that is literally not passable because fireballs will block both ladders until the timer expires.  It's an extremely rare occurrence and no such obstacle exists on any of the other boards.  The next closest thing is having to deal with a derpy freezer on the 6th girder of a barrel board, but that situation is passable and it's likely your fault when it happens anyway.


I agree that too many people blame luck for their deaths (way) too much of the time, and the "I got 'x' far at 'y' pace talk drives me crazy too.

However, I think your annoyance with this is blinding you a little and pushing you to an extreme position to the contrary that isn't reasonable.

"True screwings" are absolutely real. The fireballs (and even the barrels now and then) are capable of creating genuinely intractable situations that can't be traced back to player error or sub-optimal decision making.

I've just seen too much stuff like this:
http://www.twitch.tv/chrisp_kreme/c/2880632
to ever say that there are no screwings outside of the specific ones you mentioned.

And even for the ones you mentioned, I don't think it's fair to say that a fireball getting to the 6th girder is "likely your fault". All it takes is for a fireball to slip through and get one girder above you and he pretty much has his ticket punched for the 6th girder, if he decides that's where he wants to go. There are many, many ways for this slip-through to happen without the player doing anything wrong.

I'd say that the belief that "there are no screwings" is an illusion that stems from the fireballs rarely creating as many of the worst-case scenarios that they COULD create. But I think a couple hours on a hypothetical "maximum fireball nastiness" ROMset would dispel the illusion pretty quick. If the fireballs really want to hose you, they can, and they will, whether on barrels, conveyors, or rivets.

However, I'm in full agreement with you that the bigger illusion, and the far more pernicious one, is seeing "impossibly" bad luck where it doesn't exist, and I do think people need to take more responsibility.

But a polarized view, either way ("there is too much luck" or "there is no luck"), is unhealthy.
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Offline mrvaya

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Re: Screwings or avoidable deaths
« Reply #28 on: August 16, 2014, 04:24:22 AM »
Surely the more you play and gather knowledge of how to cope with certain situations, the more you will be ensured that there are very very few true screwings in this fine art of Donkey Kong-ing  ;D. I guess this is why we all love this game so much and is why I so eagerly seek to separate my sometimes lacking know-how from the true screwings which surely feels happens once in a while and there have been some good examples of these in this thread.

I am now  aware of the spot under the hammer being a safespot in relation to wild barrels on L5+ (thank you Ethan) which means there should not be any true screwing possibilities in the hammergrabbing process.

I have now re-watched Coreys barrel trainings videos. The are actually very very great and there should be enough training material for months and months. ;D  <stirpot>

Here in the
second barrel video

he speak of the "pause and wait method" (at the time 5:20). I feel this is exactly the method I use to get to the hammer - but are rarely but now and then assassinated by a wild barrel on level 3/4 like in my youtube-video:
here


Should I just file this death as a screwing - or are there a bulletproof method for avoiding such deaths on level 3/4?

PS. Cant help being a bit analytical about each of my deaths  ;D
« Last Edit: August 16, 2014, 04:44:41 AM by mrvaya »
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Offline f_symbols

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Re: Screwings or avoidable deaths
« Reply #29 on: August 16, 2014, 07:03:42 AM »
"...you weren't just a couple unlucky deaths away from actually achieving X.XX pace, you weren't even close.  You died before even making it half-way through the game, so shut up about it, no one is impressed that you had a couple above average levels in your below average game."

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