Author Topic: Richie's / TG's response to KO MAME debate  (Read 8326 times)

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giv

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Re: Richie's / TG's response to KO MAME debate
« Reply #30 on: August 06, 2013, 10:06:52 PM »
MAME is fine, play as much as you want. Getting out of your comfort zone and playing at a live event is more impressive. No one said it was going to be easy. I didn't just waltz right into Richie's arcade and break the record. It took hard work and sacrifice, time and money. I am walking in my own squeaky jumpman shoes. I know what it's like.

And if I broke the 5 man qbert record at home after days and weeks and years of endless restarts, are you seriously going to tell me that it is just as impressive as going to the Kong-Off and having 2 days to make a score that takes over 5 hours to get? And I did 8 hours. Limited time, pressure is on, all the great DK players and many of the best players in the scene and some of your best friends watching, literally looking over your shoulder. Same thing?

I give these examples from my personal experience in the hopes that it will explain why I see things the way I do, why I have the opinions I have. Try to grok it, as they used to say in ancient Atlantis. I'd like it if you guys would get it so you'd stop asking me the same questions over and again.

I understand there is a positive side to the online community, why would I have a problem with that? My problem is with the extreme opinion, that mame should count the same as arcade. Is DK just a rom and a score, or is it more than that? And is an arcade machine all it is about, or is it also about the arcade and the people in it? Some people have mixed views, fall on different degrees of the spectrum of opinions. But you can't tell me that there isn't an inner circle if online players that could care less about what I say because I play DK drunk once every few weeks at the end of the night at the bar. I can even get past the 3rd elevators and who cares? I'm not part of the DK elite. Richie is even better than me at DK, who cares? His opinion is met with derision. And he puts on the fucking Kong off for you guys. No respect, I tell you.

Well, you asked. But really, we know where we all stand now? Let's stop with the asking for clarification bullshit. If you still refuse to let it all sink in, well when we get to the Kong Off you will understand. I guarantee it. Ross will be doing his DKjr impersonation, and you will have an epiphany, the scales will fall from your eyes. Kongalujah my brothers and sisters.

Offline VON

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Re: Richie's / TG's response to KO MAME debate
« Reply #31 on: August 06, 2013, 10:46:38 PM »
Ross will be doing his DKjr impersonation...

Fk me.  The bs that comes out of my mouth sometimes, I swear.

Guess it's time to buy a unitard.

Offline ChrisP

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Re: Richie's / TG's response to KO MAME debate
« Reply #32 on: August 06, 2013, 11:55:57 PM »
I'm gonna play devil's advocate (George being the devil) on a point or two here: a demonstrated ability to play well on an arcade machine is absolutely a legitimate, practical concern for admission to this tournament.

It is not at all unreasonable to demand that someone who is going to compete on an arcade machine against the most extreme competition to prove that his skill on the machine is on par with his skill on MAME.

Some will say "the skills transition directly between platforms."

I would say "not necessarily." And certainly not necessarily right away. This is a two-day event. "Right away" matters.

Everyone is different. Just because Jeff Willms was able to transition to a machine instantly doesn't mean that everyone would be able to.

In fact, it's been shown anecdotally again and again that most players do NOT make the transition instantly. They need time. Hank, Dean, Corey, all of them needed time.

So if you have a guy who got 1.1 on MAME but it's going to take him 2 days (or more) to get used to the ergonomics of a machine because he's never touched one before - which is absolutely going to be true for at least some MAME players - by then it's too late. The contest is already over and one of the machines will have been given to a player who was not ready to compete, in lieu of some other player who was.

The proven ability to "bring it" in a live/noisy/chaotic environment is also a perfectly logical basis for selecting Kong Off contestants.

Even if a player could get 1.1 million on every single game at home on MAME, it means nothing if he falls apart into a puddle of nerves when a crowd is watching him and/or he isn't comfortable with a joystick. He may be an absolutely phenomenal Donkey Kong player, but he isn't fit to compete in the particular context of this tournament.

Can Phil play on a machine? Can he play well in a noisy bar? Nobody knows, except possibly Phil. He hasn't demonstrated it. Robbie proved both though at Funspot, which is why Robbie is in now.

There are more personal characteristics and abilities being put to the test at a Kong Off than pure game ability.

Steve Wiebe is the perfect example. Even though he's far from the best point-presser, he still has the best overall showing at the Kong Offs (2nd and 3rd, respectively), and that's because he knows how to play these tourneys, has incredible consistency, and knows how to deal with the environment. (He also put on a fantastic show, both years.) The skill set for a tournament has a lot more texture than just "personal best."

Most of the pro-MAME contingent is arguing from the basis that the event should include all of the best players. They're arguing from that basis, at least in part, because that's what the event bills itself as.

So, I would say that Twin Galaxies' solution is simple: stop billing it that way. All you have to do is add one word and shift another.

Change "the 12 best Donkey Kong players in the world," to "12 of the best Donkey Kong players in the world." Or even "the 12 best Donkey Kong arcade machine players in the world."

Sell it like that and the pro-MAME contingent instantly has a much shakier leg to stand on because the event no longer needs to satisfy the central underlying premise of the MAME argument (that the Kong Off HAS to include ALL the best players).

I realize that "arcade only" will be a limiting factor for certain players, particularly foreign players, and that sucks, but there are already limiting factors anyway. The tournament is in a certain physical place at a certain time, and that's pretty prohibitive just by itself.

So, I don't love the no-MAME decision, but I can be comfortable with it, because I can actually see some pretty solid logic in it.
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corey.chambers

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Re: Richie's / TG's response to KO MAME debate
« Reply #33 on: August 07, 2013, 12:27:55 AM »
I think that the only thing I wish to convey is that your response here does not address the issue of inviting an extraordinary mame player to come and play on an arcade machine in front of everyone, and in the case of the Kong Off 2, won it! I totally agree with you 100%. The Kong Off is a wonderful culture, preserving the original arcade cabinets, and we all respect and support that, and we will continue to do so with a thankful heart. When we are at the Kong Off we will feel everything that you have proposed, and we would feel it whether one mame player was invited or not, such as at the Kong Off and Kong Off 2. Making the extraordinary exception does not detract from anything you have said. At the Kong Off we will all be playing in public with people looking over our shoulder, on arcade machines, and yes it is a different feeling then streaming online, there is no doubt. We will all enjoy it, and we all do appreciate it. And if the decision is to be made for Arcade only then if one were to apply that to the Kong Off and Kong Off 2 in retrospect then would we still have the same outcome? No. In fact, if a principle can not be applied to all three Kong Offs in the same way, then we should question that principle. Jeff Willms would not have won the Kong Off 2. In fact, he made it exciting that way! Because of the discontinuity that is created with a principle that clearly shows this fatal flaw, much more than a mere explanation will be required. Like I said, has the exception in the past destroyed anything about this live competition? Did it add value? Did it allow one of the world's greatest Donkey Kong players a chance to come and win it? And isn't that what it is all about? Look at what the principle of an extraordinary exception has done for the Kong Offs in general. If it has added value, then why remove it? And if it has not destroyed but rather enriched the event, then why is it not maintained in continuity with the effects it has had on the past? People want an explanation, but in reality no true rational explanation can be given, there exists no justification at any level of this discussion, because of the discontinuity. If it can be clearly shown how this principle of an extraordinary exception has hindered the arcade culture, then people will begin to be satisfied, if it can be clearly shown that this principle of an extraordinary exception has not added any value to the previous Kong Offs I believe people will begin to listen. But I believe that no justification exists, if you or anyone else thinks that there is, unfortunately the burden of proof lies upon them. Asking our parents why we can't go to the mall on friday night with some of our friends may be met by a I told you so, but we are not children, and we are not easily placated by platitudes. The responses we usually receive are statements such as the preservation of the arcade culture, but it does not follow that eliminating the extraordinary exception works towards this end, in fact history has shown us otherwise. The non sequitur logical fallacy is clear. Comments are usually made that minimize the significance of mame, and so we are getting attitudes, not arguments, assertions are being made but arguments are not being formulated. We are not children and we are far from ignorant, and we are not easily amused.

corey.chambers

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Re: Richie's / TG's response to KO MAME debate
« Reply #34 on: August 07, 2013, 12:34:26 AM »
I fully agree with Chris's ideas as well. I personally don't mind an all arcade rule, and I don't think that an absolute mix of mame and arcade scores needs to happen, that is not my point. My point is for the possibility of an extraordinary exception. I don't think an absolute rule needs to be in effect. A relative one that allows room for an extraordinary exception will actually support other principles that underlie the whole issue.

corey.chambers

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Re: Richie's / TG's response to KO MAME debate
« Reply #35 on: August 07, 2013, 12:40:17 AM »
It should also be noted that just because someone has a high score on Arcade does not mean that they have played in front of a crowd, and just because some one is playing on mame at home does not mean that it is not with control panel controls or in a mame cab, or on a multi-board the a TG score does not accept. So there can be cases where a mame player already has the skills for the competition. Given that an extraordinary case can exist, is why the possibility for an extraordinary exception should be left on the table, and the issue not absolutized.

Offline Shane_NC

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Re: Richie's / TG's response to KO MAME debate
« Reply #36 on: August 07, 2013, 01:16:40 AM »
I think Chris hit the nail on the head. They want people that have proven to be good on an actual arcade cabinet. Since it is an arcade competition, allowing someone with no arcade background could potentially lead to a big flop, since the contest is short duration - it is possible they will not be able to perform at a suffiecient level and quickly be able to adjust from mame to arcade. And in this situation it is possible that a player with a much lower arcade highscore could potentially outperform a mame superstar.

Not saying that they can't easily adjust, but they dont want to take any chances, and I guess you really can't blame them for that.

My biggest gripe is the accessability of these cabinets;however, apon further reflection - If a person has the money and time to travel to the KO then they also should be able to travel to an arcade machine if need be and get the proper verification. So really this cancels itself out.

------------------------------

I really hate to say it, but I totally understand where they are coming from and it makes logical sense.

I believe the major crux of their argument is this:

1) They want players that have proven themselves on arcade to take top 12 spots on dedicated machines. This prevent any disasterous chokes from a potential mame player having trouble adjusting to the short duration tournament.

2) Even though these machines are not easily accessible for some players; Neither is the KO3. If you can find the time, money, resources to attend the KO3, then you should be able to find the time, money, resources to get the proper verification on a cabinet. No one is getting free airfare so travel costs to KO would be comparable to travel costs for a cabinet score.
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Offline ChrisP

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Re: Richie's / TG's response to KO MAME debate
« Reply #37 on: August 07, 2013, 01:44:59 AM »
The new format for the expanded wildcard division damn near completely solves these problems and objections, which is one of the reasons I absolutely love it.

It allows Richie to get what he wants (the 12 highest scoring players on TG's arcade list on the dedicated machines), for whatever reasons he wants it, while also allowing the MAME or can't-get-a-cab folks ample opportunity to compete and possibly even win the whole tournament.

If the "extraordinary exception" shows up and is really that extraordinary, he'll cut through the wildcard field with no problem, and have almost as much time on a cab as the dedicated players. If he turns out NOT to be so hot live, then good, a dedicated cab was not lost.

If Phil comes and plays in the wildcard division (a spot which he has already earned), he'll dominate, and it will be just as awesome as if he had his own machine. And he WILL have his own cab, for one of the three days.

I'm telling you guys, the wildcard division format this year is absolute tits! I loved it at first sight and love it even more now after this MAME decision. It is an entirely satisfying compromise, at least in my opinion.
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7/26/2013   Coin 35,946   710,800   18-1
7/28/2013   Coin 35,947   903,700   22-1
8/16/2013   Coin 35,948   694,100   17-6
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Offline homerwannabee

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Re: Richie's / TG's response to KO MAME debate
« Reply #38 on: August 07, 2013, 02:47:34 AM »
I like numbers, and I think numbers can clarify an argument very nicely.  Sometimes a persons principles can cloud common sense.  So I ask a simple question.


Is a 1.089 million score on MAME more impressive than a 1.025 million score on Arcade?  The answer should be clear as day.  Getting a 1.089 million score is much much harder.  I can see this being a legitimate argument if we were talking about a 1.035 million score on MAME Vs. a 1.025 million score on Arcade.  Then there is not enough difference, and the Arcade argument has validity.  So getting that extra 64k means that one has to average an extra 550 points per screen.  Not the easiest task considering it means going full out on hammer, and going hard on grouping.  At 1.025 you basically need to go top, and bottom hammer with a little bit of grouping for a couple of levels.  In my opinion that is a BIG difference, a difference that is much bigger than the difference between playing on MAME Vs. Arcade.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2013, 03:29:51 AM by homerwannabee »
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Offline SQUIIDUX

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Re: Richie's / TG's response to KO MAME debate
« Reply #39 on: August 07, 2013, 03:32:17 AM »
Everyone, heres the deal.
Richie and Jordan Adler own Twin Galaxies and several (b)Arcades. They have a vested interest in maintaining arcade only. and that is ok. this is a business decision. I know that not everyone has a DK cabinet, and mame is the only option, or some people prefer mame, but the fact is is that in order to bring more people to their establishments,and also bring more attention to their business(es), they want to focus on arcade scores and arcade players. Im sure in there eyes it is almost like a NES DK score being allowed for the Kong Off. Although we may not agree, you have to look at it from their point of view, and realize it is to build there business(es) (again nothing wrong with that) im sure if richie or  Jordan owned a "mame arcade" they would have only focused on mame players. there should be no hard feelings here because, in the end, they are still putting on a DK tournament which benefits this community.

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Offline mikegmi2

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Re: Richie's / TG's response to KO MAME debate
« Reply #40 on: August 07, 2013, 05:15:51 AM »
Dustin hit the point I was going to bring up.  This is ultimately business decision.

When Richie started the Kong Off...it was a little different as far as I understand...because he didn't have a stake in TG at the time...and it was pretty much all about DK and putting on a cool event for the top DK players around.

It's different now.  They're trying to grow their business.  They have a scoreboard to promote.  They put a lot of time and effort into all of this and thus should have the right to make rules.

What would happen if Joe Smith the golfer shot a 67 at Agusta, proved he was as good as the best golfers in the world...but didn't want to go through the process of getting his PGA card, didn't want to go through Q school, didn't want to properly qualify and play in live tournaments...just skip it all and expect the PGA to allow him to play with all the other people that went through all the extra trouble, followed the rules, traveled to events, paid their dues and fees...etc.

What if everyone did that?  There would be no PGA.  There would be no NBA.  There would be no professional baseball or leagues of any kind.  Someone had to start these things up, and someone had to make rules that had to be followed and honored in order to properly keep these events/leagues going.

Think about this...what if someone from Nintendo leaked the DK roms...it got out into the public, people stayed at home and played DK on MAME only because who would pay to play a game they could play for free?! (i know MAME didn't exist back then)...and the arcade machines flopped...Nintendo made nothing off of Donkey Kong...and went away before they ever had a chance to grow into what they are today!  Imagine that.  No Nintendo anything...no Zelda...no Metroid...no NES.

I'm sure there are individuals in all sports that are as good or better than the players that have contracts and play for professional teams.  People that for whatever reasons, didn't want to go through the process, or follow the leagues rules, or sign a contract, or travel, or be away from their families for months...etc...so they never made it to the pros.  Does that mean they're any worse of an athelete...no.  It simply means for whatever reason, because of circumstances, beliefs, choices, life events, whatever reason...they never got there.

I mean I guess anyone could start up their own league for any sport, and make up their own rules.  Anyone could start up their own DK event.  Maybe if someone started up a MAME only event...it that would eventually grow bigger than the Kong Off?  Who knows.

But for the Kong Off, they started it, they put in the work and time, and they get to make the rules as well.  I feel that is fair.
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Offline TheSunshineFund

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Re: Richie's / TG's response to KO MAME debate
« Reply #41 on: August 07, 2013, 05:35:46 AM »
What would happen if Joe Smith the golfer shot a 67 at Agusta, proved he was as good as the best golfers in the world...but didn't want to go through the process of getting his PGA card, didn't want to go through Q school, didn't want to properly qualify and play in live tournaments...just skip it all and expect the PGA to allow him to play with all the other people that went through all the extra trouble, followed the rules, traveled to events, paid their dues and fees...etc.


http://donkeykongforum.com/index.php?topic=323.msg7044#msg7044
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Offline danman123456

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Re: Richie's / TG's response to KO MAME debate
« Reply #42 on: August 07, 2013, 06:04:23 AM »
I look at this almost as saying don't let people with certain skin color into the club versus "You didn't get your PGA membership". Is that extreme comparison? Sure it is but even with all the comments made in jest it probably still pokes a stick in the hornets nest.

Is membership playing at home 1000 times on your personal cabinet? Seems to be and makes it feel to me that all the points you were trying to make moot George. Nothing stops someone from saying its my contest and this is the way I want to do it because this is what I truly believe in but I just don't understand WHY build a wall against the community your TRYING to encourage to be involved in the arcade culture?

It's not a lack of respect to say "Hey I really don't understand why your doing this". I totally respect what they are doing. I even think the WC option solves a lot of the problems and concur with the "You will have a dedicated machine on Sunday so if your not good enough to make it to then you didn't deserve to be there anyway". All of those are valid but I feel it's still ok to say "I don't really understand why the qualification portion of this event is being done this way".

We can have a real discussion about this face to face since typed comments can come across completely different versus talking to someone and like I said I am not trying to be a jerk here. :)

I can point out what I see as obvious shortcomings here George or perhaps my side of the fence will not look so green anymore afterwards. Nothing but love for you all :)
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Offline mikegmi2

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Re: Richie's / TG's response to KO MAME debate
« Reply #43 on: August 07, 2013, 06:14:31 AM »
I like numbers, and I think numbers can clarify an argument very nicely.  Sometimes a persons principles can cloud common sense.  So I ask a simple question.


Is a 1.089 million score on MAME more impressive than a 1.025 million score on Arcade?  The answer should be clear as day.  Getting a 1.089 million score is much much harder.  I can see this being a legitimate argument if we were talking about a 1.035 million score on MAME Vs. a 1.025 million score on Arcade.  Then there is not enough difference, and the Arcade argument has validity.  So getting that extra 64k means that one has to average an extra 550 points per screen.  Not the easiest task considering it means going full out on hammer, and going hard on grouping.  At 1.025 you basically need to go top, and bottom hammer with a little bit of grouping for a couple of levels.  In my opinion that is a BIG difference, a difference that is much bigger than the difference between playing on MAME Vs. Arcade.

I agree with everything above.  Something else that needs to be considered, other than just the points and scoring averages per level...is the rest of the gameplay.  Traps, the fireballs, screwings, odd barrel combos, wild barrels, how many free passes you got, etc.

Leave out the arcade vs. MAME stuff.  Is a 1.1M MAME score more impressive than a 1.05M MAME score?  I'd say you have to look at the entire game.  Sure 50k is a big chunk of points...nearly a whole level's worth at those paces.  But what about the fact that maybe, for example, the 1.1M score had free passes on all but 1 or 2 Pie Factory levels...whereas the 1.05M score got screwed multiple times on nearly every Pie Factory screen...and had to freestyle several of them....making jumps over fireballs...being patient at the bottom and waiting for an opening...jumping over pies to get away from fireballs...knowing to climb that ladder a little to get a fireball to climb up as well and out of the way.

Spending all that time freestyling Pie Factory screens easily will eat up 50k points...and look at all the hard work, manuvering, jumps, patience...etc...the 1.05M player had to show...whereas the 1.1M player got free passes pretty much the whole time.  If you think about it, all other things equal, a 1.1M game with mostly free passes is actually easier and takes LESS skill than a 1.05M game with several forced freestyle rivet/PF screens.

I've brought this up in other posts before...sure there is an official scoreboard and all the scores are ranked based on score alone...but that doesn't mean one player is better than the other player right below him...and vice versa. 

I've also said something along these lines before...I'd really like to see Vincent for example, play through Hank's world record game.  Not knowing it was in fact the same exact game, same fireball movements, same exact wild barrels, same exact number of free passes...and see if he would get the same score, worse, or better.

It's a shame this is essentially impossible, for many reasons, but I feel that's the only 100% fair way to really tell if one player is "better" than another.  The game is so random, the difficulty varies largely from game to game.

I mean if you really think about it...in the end, once someone gets that 1.2M game or more...it's going to happen on a relatively "easy" game...meaning they won't get screwed much at all on any PF or Rivet screens...because the minute you start having a 'difficult' game, you're losing tons of points on these screens...getting trapped or delayed on rivets and PF screens multiple times and having to freestyle, you lose thousands of points every time that happens...but these are the games that really seperate the men from the boys.  I also think it's the most fun when you have to freestyle...even though you're losing thousands of points, it's cool to make it through alive = )

If someone gets 1.2M+ on Donkey Kong, will that really mean they're the best Donkey Kong player?
« Last Edit: August 07, 2013, 07:57:56 AM by mikegmi2 »
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Offline mikegmi2

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Re: Richie's / TG's response to KO MAME debate
« Reply #44 on: August 07, 2013, 06:15:50 AM »
What would happen if Joe Smith the golfer shot a 67 at Agusta, proved he was as good as the best golfers in the world...but didn't want to go through the process of getting his PGA card, didn't want to go through Q school, didn't want to properly qualify and play in live tournaments...just skip it all and expect the PGA to allow him to play with all the other people that went through all the extra trouble, followed the rules, traveled to events, paid their dues and fees...etc.


http://donkeykongforum.com/index.php?topic=323.msg7044#msg7044


Right, haha, you said it, thanks = )
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