Author Topic: List Submission Rules  (Read 20166 times)

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corey.chambers

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List Submission Rules
« on: July 05, 2013, 05:19:09 PM »
Donkey Kong High Score List Submission Rules

Newest updates are underlined in the rules.


Normative Rules: The normative rules are the most preferred manner for scores to be submitted to the High Score List. It is the players responsibility to be familiar with these rules and should follow them as precisely as possible.

1.   The Donkey Kong Community prides itself on its close connection to all the best players in the world. Because of this, it is required that any scores posted to this high score list be done by the member who accomplished the score. This would require players to become a member of the Donkey Kong Forum by going through the Registration Process.

2.   You are to post your name and stream name to the List of Streamers so that all players may have ample opportunity to witness your scores.

3.   All scores must be streamed live on Twitch.

4.   Your post to the Score Submissions thread will include your name, date, score, and a link to the broadcast highlight. Be sure to highlight your game so it will be saved on your Twitch account and so that players can readily view the game. This highlight will be linked to the list so you will want to ensure it remains and is presentable.

5.   All scores achieved on MAME must be done on WolfMAME version 0.106 or newer using only the "US Set 1" ROM set. With the exception of scores achieved on Retro Uprising, other MAME programs are excluded.

6.   All MAME submissions are to include an attached zip folder with the INP and WLF files. The WLF file is NOT required (and does not exist) for versions of WolfMAME .107 and newer.

7.   All Arcade submissions are to be done on an original TKG-4 DK machine. TKG-3 or lower will be examined on a case by case basis and the ROMs must be US Set 1. Upon their first submissions newer members will need to briefly show us parts of the Donkey Kong Cabinet. You can stream this at the end of your game achievement showing the PCB with ROM chips, the underside of the control panel, and other parts of the cabinet. Members of the Donkey Kong Community love to see a good cabinet!

8.   4-way controls must be used on both the Arcade cabinet and through MAME. The "dkong" ROM for MAME is already set up to limit inputs to 4-way controls, whether played with a joystick or a keyboard. Any attempt to modify the "dkong" ROM for this or any other purpose will be rejected. Arcade players are to use 4-way controls only, requiring the 4-way restrictor plate. 8-way controls will be rejected.

9.   The game must have been done in its entirety during a single play. Pausing or otherwise altering the speed of your game is not allowed and will lead to disqualification. Examples of pausing include pressing "P" to pause or grabbing the edge of MAME window with the mouse.

10. Game Settings: Number of Jumpman: 3. Score Level for extra Jumpman: 7,000. Coinage and Table/Upright are Player's Choice. PLEASE NOTE: The TKG4 arcade manual recommends keeping Switch 8/H in the ON position. Also, Twin Galaxies may have different DIP Switch requirements. Players who wish to submit their performances to Twin Galaxies should double-check the required TG settings.

Auxiliary Rules: The auxiliary rules were created to evaluate scores that could not be submitted according to the normative rules. It is understood that there are occasions where the normative rules were either unknown or could not be followed for one reason or another. These rules evaluate the evidence to determine if it is sufficient in order to verify a score with a high degree of certainty.

1.   Scores that were achieved live at an event, such as the Kong Off, or other live venue where your game can be observed live by others, particularly long standing members of the Donkey Kong Community will be accepted.

2.   In case of videos that demonstrate that the game was played live at an arcade in front of witnesses may be acceptable if other video requirements are not met.

3.   Scores verified by Twin Galaxies will be accepted.

4.   Any videos, such as those posted on YouTube, which shows only the final moments of a game must demonstrate a restart to prove that the game was started with a 3 lives setting.

5.   Scores that were achieved on an "x-in-1" machine or other multi-PCB will be acceptable if the whole video is available demonstrating that continues were not utilized, unless there is other supporting evidence.

6.   MARP submissions achieved with WolfMAME will be accepted as long as the INP and WLF (if necessary) files are present.

7.   The only exception to WolfMAME for MAME submissions are those scores that are achieved at Retro Uprising. The following MUST be made available to be considered for inclusion on the High Score List: 1) the actual INP of the game in question and 2) a screenshot of the game time, recorded speed, and pause information as viewable by the moderators at Retro Uprising. It is highly recommended that any score attempts at Retro Uprising be streamed live. Any submissions that contain pauses or other deliberate speed changes (such as fast-forwarding through the loading and break screens) will be rejected.

8.   It is recommended that those who achieved their performance with a recorded INP alone also stream their INP on Twitch.

9.   The requirement for INP and WLF files addresses the possible falsification of a streamed game. If for some reason the player does not record their input along with their stream then they must demonstrate other evidences to address these concerns. These concerns predominantly include window capture only streaming formats. These evidences include: 1) showing the start up process of the game by clicking on the game in WolfMAME so we can see it is being started by the WolfMAME program. 2) At the end of the game, after the initials are entered, start another game while the game is still running. 3) Using the monitor capture format or using a webcam facing your monitor will enable people to see that you do not have any video software open on the bottom of the screen and that you are actually starting and playing a game live on Twitch.

10.   Screenshots and photographs are not adequate evidence of a genuine score.

11.   The cumulative effect of multiple evidences will also play a factor in the acceptance of a score even if those evidences are not adequate alone.

12.   Additionally, and most importantly, all scores on this list must be peer-reviewed in one manner or another. All scores which are being submitted according to the Auxiliary Rules will be handled on case by case bases and must be peer-reviewed, and a general consensus must be given by the DK Community that the score is probably genuine.

Streaming Rules: These streaming rules were created to help support the need for quality streams, and offers some general guidelines for the streaming requirement set forth in the Normative rules.

1.   It is the players responsibility to make sure that your stream is clearly visible at all times and that the score and level are easily recognizable.

2.   If there is ANY question of score and level due to bad quality stream, that submission will be rejected, instantly, with no exceptions. It is suggested that you test your streams and check them from time to time to make sure they are working correctly.

3.   It is highly recommended that any streaming, whether Arcade or MAME, show the player who is playing the game, and are encouraged to have audio available with a microphone so we can hear the player and game inputs. The more evidence that you can provide on your streams will only strengthen your score’s credibility.

4.   Streaming formats that only capture your MAME window will automatically require the INP and WLF (if necessary) files. Therefore, it is highly recommended that you either have the INP and WLF (if necessary) files, or make sure that you are using the full monitor capture, or a webcam facing your monitor, or have as much supporting evidence as possible so that there can be no question concerning the validity of your scores.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2014, 04:49:52 PM by xelnia »

cheetah33p

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Re: List Submission Rules
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2013, 09:53:23 PM »
Very awesome Job Corey and Jeff!  All explained awesome!  :-). 

corey.chambers

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Re: List Submission Rules
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2013, 08:12:33 PM »
Question: In the rules, when I mention new players to briefly show us some parts of their cab I mention the "underside of the control panel with 4-way restrictor plate". I think this came up before but for the life of me I don't remember when or where it my be in the monster General thread. (Sure wish there was a quick and practical way of pulling out single submission posts etc, so I could create new topics to get that thing organized and into multiple new threads). I may have slipped this language into the rules without remembered what we may have discussed. I think someone said that as long as they use the original nintendo joystick with the four-way restrictor and the pcb is real that it would constitute as an Arcade submission. Though I think I know at least one person that may play with a ms pacman joystick, and I am pretty sure that the machine that Svarar played on was a multi-cab that may not have had the nintendo joystick with 4-way restrictor... hmm. I mean, what is the point of an original power supply too because I know that Ethan has a newer power supply.

I don't think I ever officially decided what would be considered an Arcade submission. Some may have a mame cab with different types of joysticks, and some use a joystick on their computer. So if someone is using the TKG-4 pcb, and they happen not to have a fourway restrictor, then is this any different than a joystick that one could be using with mame on their computer? There does not seem to be a hard and fast rule. I mean, what if one player's score is higher than another, both were on an Arcade, but the one with the lower of the two scores was done with a 4 way restrictor.

Is this a level playing field for an Arcade submission? 

Another question to ask along these lines has to do with the platforms. We have one for MAME, and we have on for Arcade, and I added the Arcade(multi) next to Svarar's to ensure people knew it was not an original TKG-4 pcb, but rather a multi-board. Maybe the Arcade designation can be for those that fit an "Arcade Criteria" and then those cabs that don't fit that criteria will be on the list as something other than Arcade, or MAME. What do you guys think?

EDIT: I mean, if we did an "Arcade Criteria" then we could maybe have a minimum requirement of an original TKG-4 pcb and an original or reproduction of the nintendo joystick with the four-way restrictor. But I need all you to chime in on this possible distinction for the list.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2013, 08:15:39 PM by corey.chambers »

Offline ChrisP

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Re: List Submission Rules
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2013, 08:36:59 PM »
My thoughts:

1. The four-way should not be a requirement. As has been discussed elsewhere, anything other than a four-way is gonna hurt way more than it helps! I had an 8-way restrictor on my joystick for a short time while waiting for the 4-way and it was awful. The concern, for example, that one could "steer while climbing" with an 8-way by using the diagonals is not valid. DK doesn't acknowledge simultaneous directional inputs. You're either pushing up, left, right, or down - there is no "up-right" or "up-left."
EDIT (two years later): as it turns out, I was incorrect about this, at least in part. While I still think it's much harder to play with an 8-way, on an arcade machine you can indeed hit two directions simultanously, register two inputs, and do "steer-climbs". I was basing my assertion that you couldn't on tests I did in MAME. What I didn't know at the time is that for DK (and other 4-way games) it's hardcoded into MAME to only register one directional input at a time.

I think people should be allowed to submit using whatever controls work best for them because nobody has ever identified a control setup that would give an advantage in DK (except the old "keyboard vs. joystick" debate, where the keyboard can add a tiny bit of precision at the very, very highest skill levels of play).

2. The power supply thing is something that PSP added to the requirements when he was with TG because he noticed sometimes that certain elements of the game (the pie boards specifically) behaving strangely with certain new power supplies. I don't like this rule either. It's an extra layer of needless bureaucracy, IMO. If the power supply makes the game glitchy, it will be apparent in the gameplay. Certainly won't give anybody an advantage, in any case.

3. I like "Arcade(multi)". I think it says everything it needs to say!

4. The board is worth thinking about though, because the TKG-3s DO offer an advantage in the form of the ladder cheat. However, the title screen on the TKG-4s say "(C) 1981 Nintendo of America," whereas the TKG-3s say "(C) 1981 Nintendo", so there's no need to show the physical board because the title screen will make clear which version is running.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2015, 04:32:04 PM by ChrisP »
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7/26/2013   Coin 35,946   710,800   18-1
7/28/2013   Coin 35,947   903,700   22-1
8/16/2013   Coin 35,948   694,100   17-6
8/17/2013   Coin 35,949   893,100   22-1

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corey.chambers

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Re: List Submission Rules
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2013, 07:09:30 PM »
Good thoughts, Chris.

Here are some more questions:

I enabled cheats in MAME and then clicked play and record input. Then I turned off cheats, even moved the cheat.dat file to a different location, and then replayed the inp and it played. The inp playback did not show me going into the settings to enable the cheat. Therefore, if someone submits only an inp, then someone will have to watch every second of it to ensure that invincibility was not enabled on the springs and then shut off. There must be an easier way. How does MARP submissions work? Cheats are not allowed as I understand it but how do they know without watching every second of the game. IF there is no easy solution and the inp must be watched completely, then who would be interested in assisting me with inp verification. I can check the checksum etc, but I don't think that I can watch absolutely every second of every inp. I could require it to be streamed on Twitch and hope at least someone watched it and would report any problems, but then how does MARP handle their submissions? 

Offline Fast Eddie

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Re: List Submission Rules
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2013, 07:55:19 PM »
i always thought 106 wouldnt let you enable cheats if recording, dont think i ever tried it though...

i think if you fast forward the game and it gets to the end ok that should be fine. if someone enables invincability to get past an enemy it will still kill them when you play it back...

 8)
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corey.chambers

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Re: List Submission Rules
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2013, 08:32:47 PM »
I just witnessed this to be true. Good thinking. Thanks!

corey.chambers

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Re: List Submission Rules
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2013, 09:06:50 PM »
I have added the following Special Rules to the top of their respective High Score List:

No-Hammer: Special Rules: Score Submissions must not contain any use of the hammer for any reason, whether on purpose or accidental.

No-Killscreen: Special Rules: Score Submissions must reach and proceed after normal killscreen time.

Level 1-1: Special Rules: Score Submissions must be played on the first barrel board on level 1. The score must be achieved by one man only. You may achieve your score with any of your remaining men, it does not have to be achieved on your first man only. The board must be completed and the points accumulated during that completed run will be adjusted accordingly.

corey.chambers

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Re: List Submission Rules
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2013, 03:07:58 AM »
The following question has been proposed: Can you submit a score from a Bartop multigame cabinet? Here is the link that was shared: http://www.gumtree.com/p/for-sale/bartop-arcade-machine-with-1440-classic-games/1025257302#photo-content

I am unfamiliar with this item. Has anyone seen anything like this?

Also, this is a good time to ask some other questions. If the only difference between a cocktail and upright is the location of the monitor, I don't see why anyone in the community would not accept a score on one of those. Obviously, any submissions on a newer cab would need to be seen just so we know and understand the cab and the particulars. Even if it was a cocktail with a TKG-3, well... we have never really specified this point. Are there any emulation differences between the TKG-3 and the TKG-4? Any reflections from the community?
« Last Edit: August 02, 2013, 03:51:13 AM by corey.chambers »

Offline Fast Eddie

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Re: List Submission Rules
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2013, 09:21:34 AM »
TKG3 is the early version with the ladder cheat i think...

 8)
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corey.chambers

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Re: List Submission Rules
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2013, 10:06:06 AM »
Other than the ladder cheat are there any emulation differences at all? We can clearly see if someone uses a ladder cheat or not, but would require every moment of that game to be reviewed.

Offline up2ng

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Re: List Submission Rules
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2013, 12:18:37 PM »
No, you can't do it that way.  In the correct version of DK, you CAN still survive by hanging out on a ladder and having the barrel roll over your head.  The key is that the survival rate is low when doing this on the correct version (but it's higher than zero).  So, just because you see someone use a "ladder cheat" move does NOT mean that they are using the incorrect version of the game.  Conversely, just because someone never uses such a move does NOT mean that they are using the correct version of the game.

There may or may not be other differences between versions of the game.  It's pretty much the one thing that keeps the legitimacy of any high score board is to make sure everyone is using the same software.  All of the other nonsense regarding power supplies, the shape of a cabinet, and to some extent even the controls that are used really don't matter -- but it DOES matter that we are all using the same software, which you can't necessarily tell just from witnessing the gameplay.

IMO, scores achieved using anything other than TKG4 should not be counted (or should be tracked completely seperately).
Donkey Kong:  1,206,800  Kill Screen
Donkey Kong:  898,600     16-5
D2K:                 380,200     L=9
Donkey Kong Junior:  In Progress
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corey.chambers

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Re: List Submission Rules
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2013, 01:04:57 PM »
Thanks Dean. Though by "ladder cheat" I thought it was meant that one could go down the far right ladder on the 1st girder and come down from the top of the screen, lol. I may have misunderstood what was meant by "ladder cheat". We have allowed TKG-4 and the multi-pcb such as in the case of Svarar but it is listed in the format section, ,and is the only case. It was said that the multi-pcb emulates the TKG-4. What is the ladder cheat? And what is the TKG-3 in relation to emulation? If we have allowed the multi-pcb then that is why I wanted to know about the TKG-3. Of course, no one has made such a submission.

Offline up2ng

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Re: List Submission Rules
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2013, 01:50:04 PM »
The different "versions" of Donkey Kong has been discussed a few times on older cagdc or TG threads and of course I can't really recall how to find them.  I'm also not much of a hardware guy and am much less familiar with the cabinet side of the hobby than most other members.  Note also that by "versions", I'm not speaking of obvious hacks or clones with different Titles or misspelled Titles or anything that wasn't licensed and copyrighted by Nintendo.

But even within Nintendo, there were apparently several different versions of the game released.  In fact, it's possible to find several different Manuals which cover some of them (someone in one of those old threads uploaded pdf scans of a few of these Manuals).  It became likely that there may actually be more versions of the game than many of us thought or realized.  It's possible that not all changes to the software were tracked with a seperate TKG number -- some of the earliest versions may not have even had a TKG number or may have been tracked by Nintendo another way.  There also exist anomalies out there such as the "hard chip" which a few active members here actually owned on their cabinets without realizing it at first -- where, for example, the Pie Factory and Rivet screens immediately behaved as if it was Level 5 right off the bat.  It's unclear whether this was actually released by Nintendo (as a mod for arcade owners to install to make their games harder to earn more quarters) or by some unknown third party.

There are also different hardware configurations -- for example, there are 2-chip sets and 4-chip sets and after reading some of these threads it wasn't clear to me whether or not this necessarily correlated with certain versions of the software or not.

One of the decisions that TG made, and which most of the players seemed to buy into, is that you could tell that the correct software was running by seeing "Nintendo of America" on the opening screen, as opposed to just "Nintendo".  It's not clear to me how accurate that really is, but it could be a good start anyway.

So, the issue is complicated, but I think it would generally be a mistake to be lax on this issue where scores on games that are played on different versions of the software get sort of lumped together on the same scoreboard.  I'm not sure what the "best" way is to make sure a game is legit, but it's important to know that there ARE other versions of DK out there that DO play differently and CAN impact scoring.  I'll leave the rest up to you and the others to research this issue further and to determine how you want to run your high score lists based on your findings.
Donkey Kong:  1,206,800  Kill Screen
Donkey Kong:  898,600     16-5
D2K:                 380,200     L=9
Donkey Kong Junior:  In Progress
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Offline Fast Eddie

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Re: List Submission Rules
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2013, 02:08:34 PM »
the ladder cheat is where you can just chill right at the top of any ladder and all the barrels will roll by rather than come down on your head...

i believe TKG3 is emulated on the 'US set 2' rom, iv no idea if any multiboards use this set...

 8)

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