Poll

Should we allow score submissions from Johns pace rom?

Yes
No

Author Topic: Accept submissions from Johns pace rom?  (Read 3811 times)

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Offline ChrisP

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Re: Accept submissions from Johns pace rom?
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2016, 05:55:59 PM »
Well, having played on a cab with no calculator, and on 106 with Pauline open, I would say with no reservations that Pauline is definitely an advantage. In fact, having personally experienced it as an advantage is exactly why I feel the way I do about this. It's not a HUGE advantage, and neither would this internal calculator be, but it's a little somethin'. Not having to keep track of what I scored on the previous board or level because the stat is right there is one less thing to think about, and "one less thing to think about" makes a difference.

I'm not saying the answer is "ban Pauline", because a no-Pauline rule would be completely unenforceable and it's too late to do that anyway, but "disallow a modified ROM with a pace calculator" IS enforceable, and probably (?) should be.
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4 Quarters :-* - 800K Avg. Per Qtr. :o - No Restarts 8) - No Proof :'(

7/26/2013   Coin 35,946   710,800   18-1
7/28/2013   Coin 35,947   903,700   22-1
8/16/2013   Coin 35,948   694,100   17-6
8/17/2013   Coin 35,949   893,100   22-1

3,201,700: the $1 World Record?
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Offline marky_d

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Re: Accept submissions from Johns pace rom?
« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2016, 06:37:08 PM »
no
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Offline ChrisP

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Re: Accept submissions from Johns pace rom?
« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2016, 07:14:22 PM »
Also, just so I'm not misunderstood, I <3 DK Pace, and I sympathize with those who'd like to see it allowed (and I agree that it's really good for spectators), I just think introducing it as an acceptable alternative for competition comes with some issues.

http://donkeykongblog.blogspot.com

4 Quarters :-* - 800K Avg. Per Qtr. :o - No Restarts 8) - No Proof :'(

7/26/2013   Coin 35,946   710,800   18-1
7/28/2013   Coin 35,947   903,700   22-1
8/16/2013   Coin 35,948   694,100   17-6
8/17/2013   Coin 35,949   893,100   22-1

3,201,700: the $1 World Record?
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Offline f_symbols

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Re: Accept submissions from Johns pace rom?
« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2016, 07:19:30 PM »
Just to be clear; it's OK to play with a keyboard, a ps3 controller, any size or type of screen, any cpu, at any height from the ground, with pauline running, but it's not OK to play with an original control panel, original monitor, original joystick, default image/cp height and angle, an original cabinet and a "modified" rom that is only modified in the sense that it's pulling data from the z80 and displaying it on screen?  The actual game code is not changed...  <stirpot>

It seems fairly condescending from my position; we're accepting (and aggregating) scores from two platforms that have literally nothing in common but the rom itself, but now we're voting to disallow a variant of the arcade platform that in no way affects the actual "rom" but does allow the arcade players to have the same luxuries as pauline users (or something comparable, without the need for UI)?
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Offline f_symbols

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Re: Accept submissions from Johns pace rom?
« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2016, 07:22:39 PM »
So, had John made a plug in device that just attached to the cabinet, read the z80 and did all the work on a tablet display, it would be ok, but this isn't?  I'm just trying to show the irony of the argument when we're already accepting the mame equivalent (pauline), how much more lopsided should we make it?
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Offline danman123456

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Re: Accept submissions from Johns pace rom?
« Reply #20 on: July 04, 2016, 03:20:43 AM »
So, had John made a plug in device that just attached to the cabinet, read the z80 and did all the work on a tablet display, it would be ok, but this isn't?  I'm just trying to show the irony of the argument when we're already accepting the mame equivalent (pauline), how much more lopsided should we make it?

Yes if nothing within the code changed other than this displaying of pace what is the issue all? It's ok to use Wes's program with arcade or Pauline with mame but not this? Failing to understand the logic given there is already an established standard that says it is acceptable. Ethan's points are 100% spot on.
DK High : 1,059,700 (Lvl 22-1 KS!);
DK KS Speedrun : 1 Hr 16 Min 40 Sec - World Record!
DK Lvl 1 - 1: 12,400
Fix-It Felix Jr - 297,000 (World Record)
Fix-IT Felix Jr 1 Hour Limit - 177,000
Fix-It Felix Jr KS Speedrun - 1h33
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Offline tilt

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Re: Accept submissions from Johns pace rom?
« Reply #21 on: July 04, 2016, 04:47:19 AM »
Going off of the points above, the arguements that this is somehow an unfair advantage seem a bit weak.  When dean set his first 1m in circa 2008, he didn't have access to DK Pace 3, pauline, the donkey kong forum, grouping strategies, and so on.  Was his score possibly more impressive/difficult to achieve at the time due to what was available?  Certainly.  Do we disqualify every score done afterwards?  Another poll may needed in order to see how that turns out Kappa.

Anyways, I fail to see how this is any different from that situation.  The pauline program and John's rom:
1.) Latch on to the CPU to run program code.
2.) Reads the score through program code (OCR vs assembly)
3.) Calculate pace using start+levels+deaths
4.) Spits out numbers after levels.
Important one:
5.) Do all of this without changing the skill required to control and play the game.

Unless I am missing something, what exactly is different?
« Last Edit: July 04, 2016, 06:12:10 AM by tilt »
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Donkey kong Hard roms(prev. world record): 914,200
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Offline dkshawn

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Re: Accept submissions from Johns pace rom?
« Reply #22 on: July 04, 2016, 07:31:52 AM »
I never would have voted for pauline to be accepted and didn't even know that it was. But it doesnt suprise me. All the versions should just have seperate tracks and then people can look at a combined list if they like.
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Online xelnia

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Re: Accept submissions from Johns pace rom?
« Reply #23 on: July 04, 2016, 08:43:45 AM »
I never would have voted for pauline to be accepted and didn't even know that it was. But it doesnt suprise me. All the versions should just have seperate tracks and then people can look at a combined list if they like.

Pauline the romhack is not accepted on the Main HSL. There are no rules governing Pauline the pace program.
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Offline mrvaya

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Re: Accept submissions from Johns pace rom?
« Reply #24 on: July 04, 2016, 11:12:22 AM »
There are a lot of strong arguments for and against accepting scores from the pace rom. That is great because it shows that we all care so much about this treasured old game!!  :)

It is adduced that such a pace calculation gives an advantage over those who do not use such one. However, quite a few of those claiming this have themselves used or still uses pace calculations while playing, whether done semi-automatic (entering numbers in excel or a program) or automatic (Pauline pace program or getting info from Twitch viewers or live audience). It is out there - it is already being used extensively on all platforms!

Where we all seems to agree is that ANY submission must be done with GENUINE and ORIGINAL gameplay. Before any further discussion takes place about approving/not approving scores from the pace rom, I feel we should conclude whether or not it is possible to verify those scores as surely as it is currently being done with the original rom. Maybe Jeremy could shed some light on this?
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Offline d3scride

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Re: Accept submissions from Johns pace rom?
« Reply #25 on: July 04, 2016, 02:02:46 PM »
I would say no. Is it possible to see what parts of the code were changed?
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1-2: 22,700
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Offline ChrisP

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Re: Accept submissions from Johns pace rom?
« Reply #26 on: July 04, 2016, 02:07:31 PM »
Ya know, reading this thread makes me realize that it's impossible to be 100% internally-consistent about this stuff, unless you're willing to make things either impractically strict, or overly-relaxed, across the board.

Ethan's got a really good point about how, with MAME, basically anything goes in terms of the ergonomics and computing environment so long as the INP checks out. That's really worth examining. Yet we mix all the scores together without a problem because "MAME and arcade are the same", with proponents of that position simultaneously demanding tightness of standards when it comes to ROM hacks that don't even change the gameplay.

Meanwhile others are arguing in favor of a hack that does math for you, which somehow "isn't an advantage", mere weeks after chortling at the idea of playing by standard rules on non-standard lives setting (<stirpot>) out of a fear that those additional Jumpmen up in the corner would act as some magical performance-enhancing drug (yet having the game hand you a bunch of extremely useful stats would not??)

fk dis, can I unvote?  ;D
http://donkeykongblog.blogspot.com

4 Quarters :-* - 800K Avg. Per Qtr. :o - No Restarts 8) - No Proof :'(

7/26/2013   Coin 35,946   710,800   18-1
7/28/2013   Coin 35,947   903,700   22-1
8/16/2013   Coin 35,948   694,100   17-6
8/17/2013   Coin 35,949   893,100   22-1

3,201,700: the $1 World Record?
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Offline Scoundrl

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Re: Accept submissions from Johns pace rom?
« Reply #27 on: July 04, 2016, 02:58:09 PM »
For the HSL I would be fine accepting scores from a cab with a pace hack as long as its noted with the submission and on the list itself. If this was TG I would have a different view but for this DK specific list managed by the DK players I see no harm at all.

Even if it TG I would say that as long as game play is not changed in any way (including the time between board) it should be accepted. I have nothing against fixing old bugs or adding usability features like high score save and extra men show as long as the gameplay is left 100% in tact.

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Offline danman123456

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Re: Accept submissions from Johns pace rom?
« Reply #28 on: July 04, 2016, 04:03:49 PM »
For the HSL I would be fine accepting scores from a cab with a pace hack as long as its noted with the submission and on the list itself. If this was TG I would have a different view but for this DK specific list managed by the DK players I see no harm at all.

Even if it TG I would say that as long as game play is not changed in any way (including the time between board) it should be accepted. I have nothing against fixing old bugs or adding usability features like high score save and extra men show as long as the gameplay is left 100% in tact.

-Ken

Yeah I don't think its different than the Robotron "hack" that shows the 10 million and also the lives left plus fixed the reset bug.  If the game is the same aside from basially some cosmetic changes that don't change the gameplay at all why not? It improves the original just like the Robotron change did. I do think this is 100% different than the 6+1 discussion. Knowing your pace is not a hard thing to do and I pretty much know exactly where i am anymore so it really doesn"t "help" me. Heck hank and everyone was putting a "pace chart" on the cab so how is that different? Computing pace can be done a bunch of ways that are considered "ok" and this 100% should be allowed IMO.
DK High : 1,059,700 (Lvl 22-1 KS!);
DK KS Speedrun : 1 Hr 16 Min 40 Sec - World Record!
DK Lvl 1 - 1: 12,400
Fix-It Felix Jr - 297,000 (World Record)
Fix-IT Felix Jr 1 Hour Limit - 177,000
Fix-It Felix Jr KS Speedrun - 1h33
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Offline LMDAVE

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Re: Accept submissions from Johns pace rom?
« Reply #29 on: July 04, 2016, 05:27:17 PM »
I don't think the fact that it shows pace is the unfair advantage, even though some may see it that way. The problem I have is simple, its a modified ROM. To the average person, how do they know something else wasn't changed by even a slight percentage of what is noticed. There's no simple way other than those who can read and identify the whole code to verify it. To me I'd like to keep the main high score list with as close as possible as the TG list was maintained.
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Donkey Kong 1-1: 12,900

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