Author Topic: Strange Scores  (Read 9702 times)

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Online gstrain

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Strange Scores
« on: April 11, 2016, 07:27:51 PM »
There was an interesting discussion going on over on Mark Alpiger's forums (CAGDC) about "strange scores" that had touched on how back in the 80's Billy Mitchell would travel around the country challenging the questionable scores of players, most famously about claims of scores of 3.4M+ on Pac-Man which would have required passing the split screen.  I'd mentioned I thought it was ironic how things had come full circle and how it is now some of Billy's later Donkey Kong scores which quite a few people have become skeptical of, most famously dramatized in the movie King of Kong, but also fed fuel by Billy's less than stellar showings at the live Kong Off events.

Well the conversation was moving in an interesting direction with questions being asked about the circumstances of some of Billy's later Donkey Kong scores, especially his "new DK and DK Jr World Records done live the same day" at Boomers in July 2010.  Unfortunately just as conversation was getting interesting and it looked like fresh looks at the videos from Boomers were yielding new information, Mark Alpiger decided to abruptly end the inquiry and lock the discussion about the facts of the event.

Of course it's always disappointing when conversation is stifled, especially when on such an important subject as the integrity of high scores.  That said, if CAGDC doesn't care to discuss questions about scores which it has trumpeted in its news banner, that's Mark's decision to make and direction to set, and I respect that.

Regardless, I thought I'd take the discussion started at CAGDC and invite others here to join into the conversation in a freer environment.  Here's the original thread with a relevant starting point: http://www.classicarcadegaming.com/forums/index.php/topic,679.msg75010.html#msg75010

Online alumbrada

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Re: Strange Scores
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2016, 07:33:41 PM »
 <popcorn>
DK high score: 89,100
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Online homerwannabee

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Re: Strange Scores
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2016, 07:34:24 PM »
Well my first idea got shot down about why there is music instead of real sound.  Well maybe the real conversation was so boring the original poster went with music instead.  I mean we are talking about taking out, and putting back in an arcade rom.  Not the most entertaining stuff.
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Offline tilt

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Re: Strange Scores
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2016, 08:13:32 PM »
 <Pigger> "Let's step carefully, George...  You (and / or "lot of people") are veering towards defamation here.  I only allowed your post because it's factual (I've been hearing burbles about this for years), and you used the word 'skeptical'.  But, let's make no bones about it - this is at the line, and let's not pursue this here."

Now, to be honest, no place is really a 'good' place for this conversation.  While the chitbox rambling may go on and on, nothing cohesive has formed (for the most part).  I feel as if this may be a decent place to put some of the 'evidence' that people point to when talking about the fishiness ( 8) ) of the scores.  I won't discuss my opinions on this in this topic, but I will provide some videos to get a conversation of sorts started.  If this is not a good place for this discussion, I will remove this post.
Billy Mitchell 'Boomer' DK JR board swap:


Billy Mitchell 'Florida Mortgage Broker' score 1.0502m:


Billy Mitchell KoK score, 1.047m:


Please note that in the video of the "board swap", a DK JR pcb is swapped out for the same DK JR pcb.  Take that as you will.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2016, 09:15:31 PM by tilt »
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Offline WCopeland

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Re: Strange Scores
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2016, 08:15:44 PM »
I'm sure this thread will end well <stirpot>
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Re: Strange Scores
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2016, 08:25:41 PM »
Interesting tidbit from that video.

Billy Mitchell, "It's a good thing we got rob here, because as good as I can play this game I couldn't switch the board out, and the board in.....................I am not too sure I am going to admit anything else though."
"Perception forged in delusion and refined by pain"

-Ross Benzinger

"It's like we are able to play beautiful music out there, but no one can hear the instruments"

-Leon Shepard
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Offline tilt

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Re: Strange Scores
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2016, 08:55:04 PM »
<Billy> I am not too sure I am going to admit anything else though. <Billy>As I said, the videos speak for themselves.
My stream is currently (http://www.twitch.tv/expandedidea/)
PB(s):
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Donkey kong Hard roms(prev. world record): 914,200
Crazy Kong: 513,700 (KS)
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Online xelnia

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Re: Strange Scores
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2016, 08:57:18 PM »
Boomers was the 1.06 score, not the 1.05. There is no "tape" of the Boomers score that anyone knows of.
"Do not criticize, question, suggest or opine anything about an upcoming CAG event, no matter how constructive or positive your intent may be. You will find nothing but pain and frustration, trust me. Just go, or don't go, and :-X either way!" -ChrisP, 3/29/15
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Offline tilt

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Re: Strange Scores
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2016, 09:01:39 PM »
Boomers was the 1.06 score, not the 1.05. There is no "tape" of the Boomers score that anyone knows of.
My mistake.  The 1.0502 is actually the mortgage convention or whatever lol.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2016, 09:14:59 PM by tilt »
My stream is currently (http://www.twitch.tv/expandedidea/)
PB(s):
Donkey Kong: 1,023,500 (21-4)
Donkey kong Hard roms(prev. world record): 914,200
Crazy Kong: 513,700 (KS)
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Online xelnia

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Re: Strange Scores
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2016, 09:19:26 PM »
Just to recap, Billy's supposed 1M games:

1,014,000 - sometime in 2004 - I think only Robert Mruczek has seen this tape and it might be the one that got eaten by his VCR.

1,047,200 - June 2004 - the Funspot / King of Kong tape. Direct feed. Who knows when this game actually happened. Billy claims this was a live score.

1,050,200 - July 2007 - the Florida Association of Mortgage Brokers tape. Also direct feed. Billy supposedly played in a back room away from the crowd.

1,062,800 - July 2010 - the Boomers score. Although claimed to be recorded, there is no known footage of this game.

As best as can be determined, Billy has never scored 1M+ in any live, neutral venue or event. His highest known live score, reported by Joel West, is 982,000. This was reportedly a killscreen game that occurred at AVGC in September 2015. Previously, there were rumors that his personal best was in the 1,120,000 range. Recently, Billy himself claimed that his personal best is higher than Hank's 1,138,600 but not as high as the 1.17 scores put up by Robbie and Wes.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2016, 09:24:29 PM by xelnia »
"Do not criticize, question, suggest or opine anything about an upcoming CAG event, no matter how constructive or positive your intent may be. You will find nothing but pain and frustration, trust me. Just go, or don't go, and :-X either way!" -ChrisP, 3/29/15
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Online gstrain

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Re: Strange Scores
« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2016, 10:53:38 PM »
Griley was watching the "Billy Mitchell speaks (july,2010) moments after breaking donkey kong record" video from Boomers (
! No longer available
) today and commented that if you watch closely at 1:25 and 1:32 into the video you can see the screen of the machine behind Billy very briefly.  griley knows both Jr and DK very well and thinks the screen looks like it is DK Jr rather than DK.  If so, and maybe griley or other experts care to chime in, it is rather odd that the game would be showing DK Jr if in fact a DK record had been set on it moments before. 

Offline ChrisP

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Re: Strange Scores
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2016, 11:06:08 PM »
1,047,200 - June 2004 - the Funspot / King of Kong tape. Direct feed. Who knows when this game actually happened. Billy claims this was a live score.

The tape was first seen on June 4th, 2005 at Funspot 7 (and we all know how that went down). The alleged performance date, according to an ancient Wayback Machine snapshot, was almost exactly one year prior, June 7th, 2004.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say it was a "live" score. I'm not aware of any claim of Billy's to that effect, but then, as far as I know, I don't think Billy has ever owned a DK either, so unless it was at somebody else's house, it would have to been "live" in the sense of "live" being at a public location. Nobody really knows anything about this score though (except  <Billy>).

See attachment.

Also, just for fun and sorta off-topic, I included a Wayback snapshot of the DK scoreboard from March 2005, just before KoK started filming. :) As can be seen, BTW, <Tim> was a distant third before the movie was underway, and it was clearly a two-man race between Billy and Steve by the time they started rolling...

P.S. LOL, that top 10. what a decade-plus it's been! Poor Leo Daniels. From 9th place in 2005 to 127th in 2016.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2016, 11:22:52 PM by ChrisP »
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7/26/2013   Coin 35,946   710,800   18-1
7/28/2013   Coin 35,947   903,700   22-1
8/16/2013   Coin 35,948   694,100   17-6
8/17/2013   Coin 35,949   893,100   22-1

3,201,700: the $1 World Record?
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Online gstrain

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Re: Strange Scores
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2016, 11:39:10 PM »
... also fed fuel by Billy's less than stellar showings at the live Kong Off events.

Here's Billy's results from the 3 Kong Off events he attended:

The Kong Off 1
March 19-20, 2011
Richie Knucklez' Arcade Games - Flemington, NJ

Place     Score     Player   
   1     994,900     Hank Chien
   2     986,900     Steve Wiebe
   3     941,800     Eric Howard
   4     912,800     Dean Saglio
   5     851,900     Vincent Lemay
   6     846,800     Ben Falls
   7     821,200     Billy Mitchell


The Kong Off 2
November 16-18, 2012
The 1Up - Denver, CO

Place     Score     Player   
   1     1,105,400     Jeff Willms
   2     1,079,400     Dean Saglio
   3     1,006,700     Steve Wiebe
   4        996,800     Hank Chien
   5        996,200     Kyle Goewert
   6        988,000     Vincent Lemay
   7        943,700     Mark Kiehl
   8        901,900     Billy Mitchell


The Kong Off 3
November 15-17, 2013
The 1Up - Denver, CO

KO3 Final Results
Place     Score     Player   
   1     1,096,200     Jeff Willms
   2     1,067,100     Ross Benziger
   3     1,056,900     Hank Chien
   4     1,053,200     Steve Wiltshire
   5     1,048,800     Steve Wiebe
   6     1,033,000     Dean Saglio
   7     1,032,000     Dave McCrary (overall Wildcard winner)
   8     1,020,700     Mike Groesbeck
   9     1,006,500     Kyle Goewert
  10     989,700     Vincent Lemay
  11     893,300     Corey Chambers
  12     891,200     Jonathan McCourt
  13     883,300     Eric Tessler
  14     840,300     Robbie Lakeman
  15     809,200     Jeff Wolfe
  16     736,800     Ben Falls
  17     711,400     Ethan Daniels
  18     703,600     Aaron Rounsaville
  19     702,500     Daniel Desjardins
  20     680,000     Daniel Dock
  21     639,300     Shaun Boyd
  22     598,800     Billy Mitchell

For whatever reason, at these neutral live events Billy failed to perform near the level of his previously submitted TG scores and was consistently beaten by a wide margin by his King of Kong nemesis Steve Wiebe,  later DK world champion Hank Chien, MAME world champion Dean Saglio, and other players.

Online homerwannabee

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Re: Strange Scores
« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2016, 11:54:09 PM »
OK, you don't need to be an expert to realize this is a Donkey Kong Junior screen.  I ask ANYONE.  To just start a Donkey Kong Junior game.  The game has Insert Coin, and Player Coin in different Colors.  Now go to a Donkey Kong game.  The Insert Coin, and Player Coin are in the same color.  Now check out Billy Mitchell's screen in the background.  It's in different colors were the Insert Coin, and Player Coin is.


But the most obvious evidence is at 1:31.  Check it out yourself.  Are those vines you see or ladders?  They are vines.  Even being super fuzzy it's plain as day they are vines.

Maybe another person can refute me.  That actually would be nice.
"Perception forged in delusion and refined by pain"

-Ross Benzinger

"It's like we are able to play beautiful music out there, but no one can hear the instruments"

-Leon Shepard
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Online marky_d

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Re: Strange Scores
« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2016, 12:00:53 AM »
It's really obvious at 2:04 in the video.
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