Author Topic: Best MAME version for these Games  (Read 5261 times)

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Offline Hamster

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Best MAME version for these Games
« on: December 24, 2014, 09:21:18 AM »
I wanted to know which MAME version emulates these games the best ? As good as the original PCB so I don't need to buy an original PCB to practice ,


Pengo
Mr.Do
Mr.Do's Castle
DK
DK Jr.
Mario Bros
Popeye
Defender
Robotron
Joust
MsPacman
Galaxian
Galaga
Dig Dug

Offline ebinsugewa

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Re: Best MAME version for these Games
« Reply #1 on: December 25, 2014, 07:19:37 PM »
As for Robotron there's some discrepancy about emulation and timing, see here: http://www.robotron2084guidebook.com/technical/gameplatforms/mame/

It seems like .148 might be considered the best version: http://williamsplayersunite.com/main/robotron-2/robotron-extras/
« Last Edit: December 25, 2014, 08:41:47 PM by ebinsugewa »
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Offline Hamster

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Re: Best MAME version for these Games
« Reply #2 on: December 26, 2014, 08:36:11 AM »
As for Robotron there's some discrepancy about emulation and timing, see here: http://www.robotron2084guidebook.com/technical/gameplatforms/mame/

It seems like .148 might be considered the best version: http://williamsplayersunite.com/main/robotron-2/robotron-extras/


Thanks ,

So if I use that version of MAME in that link Robotron will play correctly because the biltter timing is fixed in that version ?

Why is it not fixed in the latest version of MAME ?


Any info about the other games I mentioned ?

Offline ebinsugewa

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Re: Best MAME version for these Games
« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2014, 11:16:13 PM »
Joust and Defender are very similar to Robotron and likely have the same problem. I don't know of any problems with the rest of those games.
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Offline SanTe

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Re: Best MAME version for these Games
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2014, 07:10:47 AM »
As for Robotron there's some discrepancy about emulation and timing, see here: http://www.robotron2084guidebook.com/technical/gameplatforms/mame/

It seems like .148 might be considered the best version: http://williamsplayersunite.com/main/robotron-2/robotron-extras/

So if I use that version of MAME in that link Robotron will play correctly because the biltter timing is fixed in that version ?

Yes.

Why is it not fixed in the latest version of MAME ?

It is.  He meant it was first fixed in 0.148.  You can use that version or any newer version for Robotron and it will play correctly now that the blitter timing has been fixed as of 0.148.

Any info about the other games I mentioned ?

Robotron was the notable exception in that list.  For all of the other games you can use any reasonably modern version and they will play fine.  MAME was first released in 1997, so by reasonably modern I wouldn't go older than 0.106, which is from 2006 and is the version that Twin Galaxies required for years.  (Actually, TG required WolfMAME 0.106.)  TG currently is making their own competition build of MAME based on a much newer release.  In the meantime, I would just use the newest release of MAME, currently 0.156.

Newer versions of MAME fix bugs, improve emulation, and add support for more games, so in general newer is better.  It is always possible that a bug that was fixed can get broken again in a later release.  This requires gaming experts (that's us) to discover these problems and report them to MAMEDev so they can look into it and fix it again.  Breaking a previously implemented fix doesn't seem to happen a lot, but it does happen.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2014, 07:13:30 AM by SanTe »
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Offline Hamster

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Re: Best MAME version for these Games
« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2014, 09:17:55 AM »
Cool , thanks for the info .

I have a couple arcade cabs and just figuring out what route to go . Do you think the ArcadeSD is Superior to MAME for those games ?

Offline SanTe

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Re: Best MAME version for these Games
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2014, 12:01:23 PM »
I have a couple arcade cabs and just figuring out what route to go . Do you think the ArcadeSD is Superior to MAME for those games ?

No, because the ArcadeSD project has already lost steam and is no longer being updated.  MAME improvements continue unabated.

That said, ArcadeSD is probably much easier to get up and running in an arcade cab, and consensus is that ArcadeSD's emulation is far superior to that of the cheap Chinese xx-in-1 boards.
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Offline Hamster

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Re: Best MAME version for these Games
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2014, 12:09:17 PM »
I have a couple arcade cabs and just figuring out what route to go . Do you think the ArcadeSD is Superior to MAME for those games ?

No, because the ArcadeSD project has already lost steam and is no longer being updated.  MAME improvements continue unabated.

That said, ArcadeSD is probably much easier to get up and running in an arcade cab, and consensus is that ArcadeSD's emulation is far superior to that of the cheap Chinese xx-in-1 boards.

I have a 60n1 board and its not very good .

Cool , so MAME is the way to go , thanks !

Offline 1500points

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Re: Best MAME version for these Games
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2015, 02:30:43 PM »
cool to see DKF has branched out from just DK.  I check in here and there to read news but never took the time to sign up.

figured I better chime in on the topic above.....I should probably rewrite that guidebook stuff, it has been a work in progress and it could use a final rewrite. sorry for the confusion.

Basically with Williams games that use blitter (not Defender or Stargate), the one that really suffers bad emulation is Robotron because it is so wicked fast with the movements and projectiles.

So here is the scoop.  Sean Riddle, the hobby mamedev, started reprogramming MAME's williams code around v14x. He would make coding changes after doing benchtesting on his real boardset and or JROK pcb, and I'd play test it or compare to my real machine that I owned at the time.

by MAME 148-153 he had recoded everything that he could control in the mame world. and in general it is perfectly coded for accurate emulation.  BUT it leaves THIS topic he couldn't code for, only hedge.

A USB interface doesn't take in nearly as many control inputs as a real Williams control interface board.  So the CPU isn't quite as busy in mame as a real machine.  So the only solution is to hedge a bit and tie up the CPU a fraction to account for the control inputs that simply don't exist in mame with a USB interface.

So the version of mame that I "tuned" at the guidebook will match the gameplay experience of a real arcade machine, which even Jeff Harrist has played and confirmed is undetectably accurate with his real machine.  A quick mame download will also be at williamsplayersunite under the robo extras section by later tonight or tomorrow  TRY OUT THE NEW TIE-DIE ROMSET, TOO.  :)

long story short if you play old mame like v106, you will perceive that 153 is close to an arcade experience in comparison.
but if you get really good at robo and become aware of nuances you'll find that 153 is a titch harder than a real machine. noticeable in the wave 40-60 range on tank and brain stages.

MAME at mamedev is as good as it can get by pure coding so it'll forever be a bit harder than real machine, unless you hedge it with the williams.c adjustments I outlined.

Joust is a slight bit harder too but Joust is a slower game so it isn't as detectable, like you'd have to be in the wave 30-60 range to notice it and you'd have to be experienced enough to be aware of the variations.

make sense?

PS-ArcadeSD is outstanding for vertical games some of which you mention above. But it is the worst out there for Williams emulation. 19-1 pcb does it better than arcadeSD.  Clay has the timing info from Sean, but as noted above the pcb seems to have lost steam and i expect to never see him rewrite the Williams emulation.  Zoo Keeper is a huge plus on ArcadeSD, though.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2015, 02:34:24 PM by 1500points »

Online WCopeland

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Re: Best MAME version for these Games
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2015, 03:06:50 PM »
I will have to try out a later version of MAME for Defender, Mark. For the Yolympics competition I tried 106 on TGTS and had trouble even breaking 60k. I hopped onto a machine Saturday and nearly got that on one man. WolfMAME 106 definitely seems to have input lag problems with Defender.
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Offline 1500points

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Re: Best MAME version for these Games
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2015, 05:16:38 PM »
Defender can be finicky depending on the mame version and monitor used.  sometimes new mame is laggy or has tearing in landscape where really old mame works fine, and someone else will have a completely different experience. must be OS and video cards and memory and various sundries involved?

The JROK seems to be the best way to play Defender if you have an arcade monitor and no real boards. Sean has tested it and confirmed the JROK FPGA is spot on over endless millions of cycles.

Offline Hamster

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Re: Best MAME version for these Games
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2015, 08:48:03 AM »
cool to see DKF has branched out from just DK.  I check in here and there to read news but never took the time to sign up.

figured I better chime in on the topic above.....I should probably rewrite that guidebook stuff, it has been a work in progress and it could use a final rewrite. sorry for the confusion.

Basically with Williams games that use blitter (not Defender or Stargate), the one that really suffers bad emulation is Robotron because it is so wicked fast with the movements and projectiles.

So here is the scoop.  Sean Riddle, the hobby mamedev, started reprogramming MAME's williams code around v14x. He would make coding changes after doing benchtesting on his real boardset and or JROK pcb, and I'd play test it or compare to my real machine that I owned at the time.

by MAME 148-153 he had recoded everything that he could control in the mame world. and in general it is perfectly coded for accurate emulation.  BUT it leaves THIS topic he couldn't code for, only hedge.

A USB interface doesn't take in nearly as many control inputs as a real Williams control interface board.  So the CPU isn't quite as busy in mame as a real machine.  So the only solution is to hedge a bit and tie up the CPU a fraction to account for the control inputs that simply don't exist in mame with a USB interface.

So the version of mame that I "tuned" at the guidebook will match the gameplay experience of a real arcade machine, which even Jeff Harrist has played and confirmed is undetectably accurate with his real machine.  A quick mame download will also be at williamsplayersunite under the robo extras section by later tonight or tomorrow  TRY OUT THE NEW TIE-DIE ROMSET, TOO.  :)

long story short if you play old mame like v106, you will perceive that 153 is close to an arcade experience in comparison.
but if you get really good at robo and become aware of nuances you'll find that 153 is a titch harder than a real machine. noticeable in the wave 40-60 range on tank and brain stages.

MAME at mamedev is as good as it can get by pure coding so it'll forever be a bit harder than real machine, unless you hedge it with the williams.c adjustments I outlined.

Joust is a slight bit harder too but Joust is a slower game so it isn't as detectable, like you'd have to be in the wave 30-60 range to notice it and you'd have to be experienced enough to be aware of the variations.

make sense?

PS-ArcadeSD is outstanding for vertical games some of which you mention above. But it is the worst out there for Williams emulation. 19-1 pcb does it better than arcadeSD.  Clay has the timing info from Sean, but as noted above the pcb seems to have lost steam and i expect to never see him rewrite the Williams emulation.  Zoo Keeper is a huge plus on ArcadeSD, though.


I was looking on your website for the hedged version of MAME . I couldn't find the download . Thanks for the explanation of Robotron .





How do trackball games play in mame , like centipede , marble madness ? I think thats a question for Mr. Al Piger .
« Last Edit: April 20, 2015, 08:55:58 AM by Hamster »

Offline 1500points

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Re: Best MAME version for these Games
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2016, 01:10:03 PM »
I was looking on your website for the hedged version of MAME . I couldn't find the download . Thanks for the explanation of Robotron .


Sorry, just saw this reply.
I consolidated the variety of game variations and the hedged mame here-

http://www.robotron2084guidebook.com/technical/gameplatforms/mame/erasofrobotronemulation/