Author Topic: Screwings or avoidable deaths  (Read 5838 times)

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Offline mrvaya

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Screwings or avoidable deaths
« on: August 15, 2014, 05:53:03 AM »
Okay folks - I was wondering...

We speak a lot about strategy - how to avoid deaths and optimize our scores in the aim to set new personal bests/climb the rankings etc.

It is common knowledge, that to a large extent you can avoid most deaths. But then there are... the screwings!... the randomness of the game, that just claim a death once in a while... the ones that you cannot do anything about and have to accept to be a part of the game.

In order to get very good at the game, one need to know the difference between true screwings and avoidable deaths (by "perfect play") that one simply do not know how to avoid yet.

My question: How many (and which?) screwings (unavoidable deaths) can one be exposed to?

Example: level 3 barrel screen. You conservatively make your way to climb the small ladder from the 4th to the 5th girder (being aware of kings cycle), are grabbing the hammer - but are hit by one of those nasty wild barrels before you reach the safespot. Is that a screwing?... or an avoidable death if you use a certain technique?

Obviously there are a some possible screwings on the pie- and rivet screens. But are there really that many?

What do you guys think?
« Last Edit: August 15, 2014, 06:20:13 AM by mrvaya »
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Offline pwnasaurus

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Re: Screwings or avoidable deaths
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2014, 05:56:43 AM »
I think there's so many variables involved in any single DK death event that it would be difficult for me to generalize situations.  I'd probably need to see an example played out on a case by case basis.
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Offline mrvaya

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Re: Screwings or avoidable deaths
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2014, 06:33:51 AM »
I think there's so many variables involved in any single DK death event that it would be difficult for me to generalize situations.  I'd probably need to see an example played out on a case by case basis.

Surely a lot of people (including myself) will sometimes think they suffered a death because of a "screwing", which in reality are caused by putting themselves in a bad situation e.g. doing some unintended steering/grouping on barrels or letting yourself getting surrounded on the rivets/pie-screens.

But if the best players of the game quite commonly can reach the killscreen after some 116 screens - there can't really be that many true screwings?
« Last Edit: August 15, 2014, 06:49:09 AM by mrvaya »
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Offline WCopeland

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Re: Screwings or avoidable deaths
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2014, 06:56:47 AM »
When I think of screwings I'm reminded of this thread:
http://donkeykongforum.com/index.php?topic=767.0

As I've become a better player it's very seldom I get killed by these types of barrels now, as I've learned all the different safe spots you can stand during the transition.

It's very easy to ascribe a death to screwing because doing so removes the responsibility of the death from your own play. Until you're playing regularly around 1.1m pace (and I myself am not there yet), I think it's fair to say most, if not all, deaths are your fault.  That reality is what makes this game so painful to play sometimes.
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Offline mikegmi2

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Re: Screwings or avoidable deaths
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2014, 07:12:18 AM »
I would tend to agree with Wes.  Even crazy situations can be gotten out of...even if you have to jump fireballs, etc...there is almost always a way out. 

The only real screwings I feel happen on rivets...if you don't have the foresight to abandon the star...or even try to abandon the star....and still get forced up to the top, and are forced to jump a firefox, and it runs back as you're jumping it...there's literally nothing you can do about those situations other than die.

I used to die a lot on pies...but the more you play, the more you realize that there is almost always a way to get yourself out of a situation...or do something differently to prevent yourself from getting into a situation where you have to jump a fireball to survive.

As for barrels L1-4...since I am going for 1.1+ pace, I don't even think about wild barrel deaths as screwings anymore...the game is either going to cooperate, give me the points and let me advance, or kill me.  There's no careful play, dancing around to try to avoid stuff...I go for the max points, and if the game kills me, I start over or rage quit.  Kappa
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Offline mrvaya

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Re: Screwings or avoidable deaths
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2014, 08:13:52 AM »
As I've become a better player it's very seldom I get killed by these types of barrels now, as I've learned all the different safe spots you can stand during the transition.

Are there other safespots (in relation to wild barrels) besides under kongs left foot and to the right of the 5th girder (and of course on the 6th girder)?

If you're good at dodging level 3/4 wild barrels I guess you can avoid deaths even on the 4th girder... but what about when you are grabbing the hammer on the 5th girder and traversing back under kongs left food? Aren't you exposing yourself for an unavoidable screwing?

The only real screwings I feel happen on rivets...if you don't have the foresight to abandon the star...or even try to abandon the star....and still get forced up to the top, and are forced to jump a firefox, and it runs back as you're jumping it...there's literally nothing you can do about those situations other than die.

Sure - I know this situation all too well  ;D So when ARE you to abandon the star..?  ???

... and if the game kills me, I start over or rage quit.  Kappa

Think I tried that as well  <thefinger>
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Offline f_symbols

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Re: Screwings or avoidable deaths
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2014, 08:42:45 AM »
This is rather basic but it should give you some ideas. Uphill of a ladder is always safer than downhill, and some of these spots are not safe from wild barrels just good spots to stand while deciding what to do next...

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Offline Shnypz

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Re: Screwings or avoidable deaths
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2014, 08:45:25 AM »
I don't feel i get screwed too much on the barrel boards. Deaths are usually a result of some stupid shit I do (rushing/not paying attention). Poorly timed wild barrels suck but that's the game more or less.

What pisses me off are the fireboxes on the rivet level. I love how they are mindless idiots until you grab a hammer then they suddenly know to run up a ladder for safety. Or you'll have 3 of them on the upper girders who refuse to move up/down...or keep going up and down the center ladder with long pauses at the top and bottom.

Firefoxes are assholes  >:(
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Offline stella_blue

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Re: Screwings or avoidable deaths
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2014, 09:18:24 AM »
I seem to recall reading (or hearing) an explanation of why bombs exist in DK, and how they are sometimes transformed into "normal" wild barrels.  I've tried to locate the explanation on several forums, without success.  Either my search skills have deteriorated, or such a post doesn't exist.  It may have been a verbal description, possibly during one of Dean's online sessions.

This is my current understanding of wild barrel behavior (accurate or not):

In the program code, a memory location keeps track of the last girder struck by a wild barrel.  If a wild barrel disappears from the screen before reaching the bottom, that final girder is remembered (let's call it "X").  When the next wild barrel is released, its first bounce will be on girder "Y", immediately below "X" (so, Y = X - 1).

Example #1:  A wild barrel is released, bouncing from one girder to the next.  After hitting the 2nd girder, it goes offscreen (X = 2).  The next wild barrel will be a bomb, dropping straight down to the bottom girder (Y = 1) without touching any of the girders above it.

Example #2:  A wild barrel disappears offscreen after striking the 5th girder (X = 5).  The next wild barrel will start out as a bomb, but will bounce off the 4th girder (Y = 4) and become a standard type of wild barrel.

If I'm way off base, it certainly isn't the first time.  Please correct me.

I've highlighted a recent Level 1-1 death, similar to Example #2.  With 3700 on the bonus timer, a wild barrel is released.  It hits the 4th girder and bounces offscreen.  The next wild barrel is released when the bonus timer is at 1900.  It appears to be a bomb, then strikes the 3rd girder, angles sharply to the right, and smacks me in the face as I'm jumping left (between an oncoming barrel and a descending fireball).

https://www.twitch.tv/stella_blue/v/42775868

Technically, the death was avoidable.  In a perfect world I would have observed that:
  • The first wild barrel last touched the 4th girder before exiting the screen
  • No other wild barrels had been released between 3700 and 1900 (bonus timer values)
  • More than 66 real-time seconds had elapsed since the beginning of the stage
Armed with this information, I might have anticipated the "Bomb => Type 2" hybrid coming my way, and reacted accordingly.

Unfortunately, my "board awareness" hasn't quite reached that level of sophistication.

« Last Edit: April 26, 2016, 12:59:46 PM by stella_blue »
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Offline mikegmi2

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Re: Screwings or avoidable deaths
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2014, 09:31:26 AM »
As I've become a better player it's very seldom I get killed by these types of barrels now, as I've learned all the different safe spots you can stand during the transition.

Are there other safespots (in relation to wild barrels) besides under kongs left foot and to the right of the 5th girder (and of course on the 6th girder)?

If you're good at dodging level 3/4 wild barrels I guess you can avoid deaths even on the 4th girder... but what about when you are grabbing the hammer on the 5th girder and traversing back under kongs left food? Aren't you exposing yourself for an unavoidable screwing?

The only real screwings I feel happen on rivets...if you don't have the foresight to abandon the star...or even try to abandon the star....and still get forced up to the top, and are forced to jump a firefox, and it runs back as you're jumping it...there's literally nothing you can do about those situations other than die.

Sure - I know this situation all too well  ;D So when ARE you to abandon the star..?  ???

... and if the game kills me, I start over or rage quit.  Kappa

Think I tried that as well  <thefinger>

Abandoning the star is often a crap shoot. You generally think about doing it when you see a lot of fire foxes spawning towards the top, or on the level with the left hammer.  Also if you see a lot of foxes running left, it might be a good idea to do the weave and abandon the star. Doing the weave and blocking off any chance of a fox to trap you on the left is always better then forcing the star and getting screwed...but the problem is, it's basically impossible to predict if those foxes running left will in fact trap you or not.
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Offline mrvaya

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Re: Screwings or avoidable deaths
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2014, 10:53:46 AM »
This is rather basic but it should give you some ideas. Uphill of a ladder is always safer than downhill, and some of these spots are not safe from wild barrels just good spots to stand while deciding what to do next...




Hey nice graphic man - thanks! :) I know about the uphill-thingy and agree with your  spots - except I don't know why you dislike the middle of 4th and 5th girders which are my favorites? The middle of the 4th girder seems good for steering the barrels above you down the broken ladder and is close to the ladders to the 5th girder. Why run all the way to the broken ladder unless you are forced to because of some nasty double groups coming at you which needs more space? Of course the middle of the 5th girder is best when you have the hammer - and then run to the uphill spot afterwards.

But... can you with perfect play make sure not to die on the barrels/level 3/4?
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Offline mrvaya

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Re: Screwings or avoidable deaths
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2014, 10:56:41 AM »
I don't feel i get screwed too much on the barrel boards. Deaths are usually a result of some stupid shit I do (rushing/not paying attention). Poorly timed wild barrels suck but that's the game more or less.

What pisses me off are the fireboxes on the rivet level. I love how they are mindless idiots until you grab a hammer then they suddenly know to run up a ladder for safety. Or you'll have 3 of them on the upper girders who refuse to move up/down...or keep going up and down the center ladder with long pauses at the top and bottom.

Firefoxes are assholes  >:(

Same goes with me on the barrel boards :) About the fireboxes... they should be random, so remember to appreciate when you put yourself in stupid situation that good luck brings you out of. :D
« Last Edit: August 15, 2014, 11:05:23 AM by mrvaya »
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Offline WCopeland

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Re: Screwings or avoidable deaths
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2014, 11:00:14 AM »
The middle of the 4th girder can be a problem during transitions after bottom hammer. If you jump left to go over approaching barrels and Kong simultaneously throws a wild barrel, you're dead before you touch the ground. This scenario will rarely occur in games where you are running boards though.
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Offline mrvaya

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Re: Screwings or avoidable deaths
« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2014, 11:04:14 AM »

I seem to recall reading (or hearing) an explanation of why bombs exist in DK, and how they are sometimes transformed into "normal" wild barrels.  I've tried to locate the explanation on several forums, without success.  Either my search skills have deteriorated, or such a post doesn't exist.  It may have been a verbal description, possibly during one of Dean's online sessions.

This is my current understanding of wild barrel behavior (accurate or not):

In the program code, a memory location keeps track of the last girder struck by a wild barrel.  If a wild barrel disappears from the screen before reaching the bottom, that final girder is remembered (let's call it "X").  When the next wild barrel is released, its first bounce will be on girder "Y", immediately below "X" (so, Y = X - 1).

Example #1:  A wild barrel is released, bouncing from one girder to the next.  After hitting the 2nd girder, it goes offscreen (X = 2).  The next wild barrel will be a bomb, dropping straight down to the bottom girder (Y = 1) without touching any of the girders above it.

Example #2:  A wild barrel disappears offscreen after striking the 5th girder (X = 5).  The next wild barrel will start out as a bomb, but will bounce off the 4th girder (Y = 4) and become a standard type of wild barrel.

If I'm way off base, it certainly isn't the first time.  Please correct me.

I've highlighted a recent Level 1-1 death, similar to Example #2.  With 3700 on the bonus timer, a wild barrel is released.  It hits the 4th girder and bounces offscreen.  The next wild barrel is released when the bonus timer is at 1900.  It appears to be a bomb, then strikes the 3rd girder, angles sharply to the right, and smacks me in the face as I'm jumping left (between an oncoming barrel and a descending fireball).

http://www.twitch.tv/stella_blue/c/4911620

Technically, the death was avoidable.  In a perfect world I would have observed that:
  • The first wild barrel last touched the 4th girder before exiting the screen
  • No other wild barrels had been released between 3700 and 1900 (bonus timer values)
  • More than 66 real-time seconds had elapsed since the beginning of the stage
Armed with this information, I might have anticipated the "Bomb => Type 2" hybrid coming my way, and reacted accordingly.

Unfortunately, my "board awareness" hasn't quite reached that level of sophistication.


Wow - I have never taken notice of such barrel-behavior  <gasp> <gasp>
When I said "perfect play" I did not mean THAT kind of "sophistication" - just perfect play out of whats the game put at you. That is being screwed  ;D
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Offline f_symbols

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Re: Screwings or avoidable deaths
« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2014, 11:14:28 AM »
The red marks on the middle of the 4th and 5th are areas where wild barrels will get you if you spend too much time. As Wes mentioned above, on the fourth girder, a wild barrel can be released and hit you in less time than it takes to complete a single jump. the red spot on the 5th girder is bad because he can drill you in the back, as you head right with a hammer (before l=5 difficulty). Lastly, the spot by the broken ladder on the right of the 4th girder is only relevant if you ascended from the short ladder on the right of the 3rd (dont do it when running boards unless the fire ( jerks ( <Pigger> ) ) forces you over there), or as you already mentioned, when things get hairy and you need more time.

Edit: Scott, the wb talks were on a dean stream, your sleuth skills are not waivering ;) fear not
« Last Edit: August 15, 2014, 11:17:40 AM by f_symbols »
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