Author Topic: Kong Off Wildcard Qualifiers Discussion Thread  (Read 11364 times)

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Offline danman123456

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Re: Kong Off Wildcard Qualifiers Discussion Thread
« Reply #30 on: June 06, 2013, 10:15:28 AM »
Oh absolutely. Hopefully nothing I say is coming off as hostile because that is no way the case. I support everything they have done and like my first post just wanted to be able to discuss it. If its one way or the other I will support that. This is for fun and people have put a lot of time / effort into it for free. :D

This might be a good time in the thread to remind everyone that these wildcard tournaments have been, and continue to be, total freerolls, with prize money and hours of effort donated freely and selflessly by the organizers, on behalf of the community. They are a gift.

That being the case, while disagreeing, even strongly, is understandable, to disagree in a hostile tone is not only inappropriate, but counterproductive, and potentially harmful to everyone.

If one needs a few extra minutes to take a deep breath and adjust his approach to the argument such that it won't come off as an attack, I think Eric and John have more than earned those few minutes.
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Offline danman123456

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Re: Kong Off Wildcard Qualifiers Discussion Thread
« Reply #31 on: June 06, 2013, 10:20:33 AM »
Yeah I agree Ross. Eric/John you guys are cool don't take what I am saying as any disrespect please. :)
Just want to engage in an open discussion is all.. :)

Agree Ross - They should either give 1st place overall a dedicated machine on Sat/Sun or you play on Sat with just the 16 (Top 7 from Friday and Top 9 from WC).

Just to be clear, I am certain that is the intention.

Eric and John are tops, and I did not intend to demean their efforts.

I have an infinite amount to say on the matter, which will come, in time.
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Offline danman123456

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Re: Kong Off Wildcard Qualifiers Discussion Thread
« Reply #32 on: June 06, 2013, 11:36:08 AM »
I vote we move this discussion back to the other thread but I do participate in quite a few sports where handicapping is essential. No offense to anyone but no one here would agree to play against Tiger Woods in golf straight up which is basically what a 200k player is being told. The Kong-Off event is the US Open and its for scratch people to play heads-up. Thats not what this should be about in my mind. Sports have handicaps for a reason and to be honest the handicap system works AGAINST the person with the handicap anyway if its anything less then 100% of xxx.  Trust me I am a 220+ average scratch bowler and this came up all the time and handicaps work FOR the better person not against them. If a 300k max DK player gets the game of his life we are talking what maybe 500k? That still means he only hits 980k in a handicap setup against others who can legitimately get 1 million+. Its like asking a 30+ handicap golfer to play heads up against Tiger Woods every-time and just have to suck it up because THIS time I might have a shot at beating you. My attitude is do both. Have both handicap and scratch scores taken into consideration. :)


Some will argue that handicapping is lame, but others will say...who will play when it's almost certain that someone like Dean or Jeff will probably win...and why would anyone with a PB of less than 700k even try?  But then, is it not also 'lame' for someone to win by a few hundred points because of the handicap system?



Place me squarely in the "handicapping is lame" camp.  Maybe it works well in golf or bowling; I wouldn't know, as I don't participate in either activity.

I'm far more interested too see how I stack up in a pure competitive setting as opposed to a handicapped one.  Putting it another way, I'd rather play "straight up" and finish 35th, than to be awarded 1st place after an arbitrary score adjustment formula is applied.  For me personally, it would be a hollow victory.
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Offline LMDAVE

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Re: Kong Off Wildcard Qualifiers Discussion Thread
« Reply #33 on: June 06, 2013, 11:43:17 AM »
The Kong-Off event is the US Open and its for scratch people to play heads-up.

Actually the Kong Off was originally created to emulate "The Masters" if you are using golf terms. It was an event made to put the best-of-the-best up against each other.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2013, 11:46:01 AM by LMDAVE »
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Offline danman123456

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Re: Kong Off Wildcard Qualifiers Discussion Thread
« Reply #34 on: June 06, 2013, 12:01:39 PM »
Haha yes Dave that would be a better assessment.

The IROC would be auto racing for the folks who don't follow golf. :)


The Kong-Off event is the US Open and its for scratch people to play heads-up.

Actually the Kong Off was originally created to emulate "The Masters" if you are using golf terms. It was an event made to put the best-of-the-best up against each other.
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Offline Fast Eddie

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Re: Kong Off Wildcard Qualifiers Discussion Thread
« Reply #35 on: June 06, 2013, 12:55:16 PM »
obviously there are some issues, but overall sounds like a great little tourney for the wild card players anyway, and will add more interest to the online WCRs...

 8)

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Offline Bliss1083

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Re: Kong Off Wildcard Qualifiers Discussion Thread
« Reply #36 on: June 06, 2013, 04:51:11 PM »
I'll just be happy to play in the tournament at a time that I'm starting to peak! Maybe the top players might have some rust to knock off and I have the game of my life and place.  Always great to have a chance to do this and have some fun.
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Offline ChrisP

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Re: Kong Off Wildcard Qualifiers Discussion Thread
« Reply #37 on: June 06, 2013, 09:11:22 PM »
I'm sort of going the opposite of Mitch here.

I like that this new format blurs the line between the top 12 and the wildcard division in the "dedicated machine" sense.

I think it's a line that should be blurred because over the last year, the gap in skill between the best of the wildcard players and many among the top 12 has narrowed to the point of being imperceptible.

That being the case, we should be trying to mitigate, not exacerbate, the significant privilege the 10th-12th place players get over players who are only a few thousand points behind them in terms of personal best. Machine access should be more of a gradation than a sharp cutoff.

"Top 12" is just so arbitrary. Especially since a one-time personal best game (which also requires a bureaucratic verification process) is a highly-flawed criteria for KO qualification anyway. But that's a post in itself.

John and Eric's format gives the best of the wildcards a way of getting more time on the machines, which they deserve. Again, several of the wildcards are at least as good as some of the players in the top 12.

Does anybody really think that a player who manages to get almost a million in a single-day online tourney (which will probably describe several in the top 9), then goes on to defend his position in a 16-way standoff at the KO does NOT deserve his own dedicated machine for a single day, but meanwhile it's perfectly fair for somebody who got a little over a million, only one time, to get his own machine for TWO days?

Yes, they both did something different to get their own machine, but it's pretty close, especially with how high these wildcard scores are going. In fact, I would argue that the Day 3 wildcarders probably have a harder job.

I'm okay with the Kong Off itself being cutthroat, simply because it must be, but am a fan of machine access being more equitable, because it can be, and it should be.

Time to be blunt: "the 12 best" just doesn't reflect reality in 2013.

Personally, I see five categories.

1. Two megabeasts (Saglio, Willms)

2. Three superbeasts (Chien, Lemay, Wiebe)

3. This third group is a big group. This is a cluster of more than a dozen very good players who have gotten between 975K and 1050K, but who are mostly relatively close to one another (though there are definitely a few who are "captains" of this group and on the upper end of it).

4. Post-killscreen (or "doublehammer or bust") players who are well on their way into the "cluster" group and several of which will get there by KO3.

5. Pre-killscreen/singlehammer players.

And then there's Ross and Billy, who don't quite fit into any of the categories in this scheme for their own specific reasons... Ross is kind of an enigma (his PB comes nowhere close to reflecting his actual ability) and Billy deserves an eterna-machine simply because he's the reason any of this is happening at all.

As a collective, the five players in groups 1 and 2, quite frankly, totally outclass and dominate the rest of the field, and I'd go as far as to call the KO3 for one of those five (not sure which, but one of them) right now.

People always say "with the randomness, it's anybody's game." But after what I saw at the KO2, I just can't believe that anymore. There IS a level of difference. Wiebe got almost a million the first day, then did it TWICE the next day. Similar with Dean and Jeff. These guys were running circles around everybody else. Vincent and Hank were off of their best during the tourney, but we know what they can do. Again, any one or two of them might be off for a weekend, but the others will pick up the slack, making them totally unstoppable as a group. They're the Gang of Five!

As for the third group, there are now just too many players crowded into it, and more are on the way. There's too much intermingling of ability between some top 12ers and some wildcarders for it to be fair to exile so many of the wildcarders to a deep second-class status when they're starting to mash up with the first-class (especially since there's really a "super-first class" now that's crushing the "lower first class," and even more decisively than the lower first class is crushing the second class). It stands to reason, therefore, that there should be more of a mash-up on the machines too.

It's not like a 300K player would be surviving to Day 3 and getting his own machine. The dedicated Day 3 machines will go to players like Phil Tudose, who I'd easily put in a horse race against anybody below the "Gang of Five." People like that will be able to do serious damage on the leaderboard because (unlike at the KO2) they're actually going to be given the time and the space.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2013, 01:43:35 AM by ChrisP »
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Offline tessler1134

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Re: Kong Off Wildcard Qualifiers Discussion Thread
« Reply #38 on: June 06, 2013, 09:57:12 PM »
Thank you to everyone for your valuable feedback on the KO 3 and the Wildcard Division Qualifier Tournaments. You have all identified various concerns and troublesome scenarios regarding the format of the tournament  :o. As such, we will be modifying the format to eliminate a majority of these concerns. As always, John and I welcome all feedback and we will tweak the format/rules to ensure that we put forth a fair tournament for the wildcard division at the KO 3. Stay tuned for the updated format and keep up the DK practicing!  8)

- Eric and John
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Offline mikegmi2

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Re: Kong Off Wildcard Qualifiers Discussion Thread
« Reply #39 on: June 07, 2013, 04:22:23 AM »
Great post Chris, just wanted to say I agree with your opinions...and your posts are always well written and thought out.
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Offline LMDAVE

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Re: Kong Off Wildcard Qualifiers Discussion Thread
« Reply #40 on: June 07, 2013, 05:28:32 AM »
Chris, the only flaw with interpreting the "line" at #12 is some of those that have been in there since last year have really increased their game, even if their PB hasn't increased yet. (A lot of the top 12 are not active streamers now, so it's a big mystery). Kyle Goewart has always been a mystery. He just pops up and submits a score. Kyle's a guy who puts up a killscreen at KO2 right after Wiebe and only 5K behind Steve's score and only gets a golf clap after hearing 10 minutes "Wiebe Wiebe Wiebe!!" when he did his. And also finished in the top 5. I didn't hear his name mentioned in the "Gang of 5". Who knows where his game is now.

Pace is such an over looked factor now, because it doesn't really show up unless you reach the killscreen. My PB, for example,  went from1.015M to 1.026M. Doesn't seem like much, except my 1.026M game ended 45K before the killscreen, and my level of play has been increased even more than that now. So, if a new player comes along and killscreens at 1.025M, pointwise it looks like they are at the same level, but they arent yet. Making the transistion to 1.1M pace is quite a leap.

They are several in the "wildcard" group that are popping out. And of course I'll use Steve Wiltshire as an example again since he played his way into it. There are several more that I can see. If I had to make a prediction I'll probably go with Robbie Lakeman to be the next to crack into the 12. And then of course Ross could always do it, and a few more.

There's over 150 days left to do it. And you don't have to wait for a satellite tournament to do it. I wish more would jump in because maybe it would light a fire under my butt to start taking more focus on my games.

A line has to be drawn somewhere, just like in sports playoffs. (I know many don't like that analogy because they play a new season every year), but just saying there are always qualified teams with hunger and heart that miss the cut sometimes.

Between now and KO3, what are the reasons behind someone not cracking the top 12? Could be a couple of answers

(1) Well, my game isn't at that level yet but I still want to play in the kong off, anything can happen.
(2) My pace is there and so close, but keep getting screwed by fireballs! I know I can do it!

Well thats where the wildcard section comes in.

I do wish Jourdan or Richie would clarify the top 12.

-is it strictly top 12 (arcade) TG verified
-is it top 12 (arcade) TG and Streaming (MAME streaming too?)
-is it top 12 arcade and MAME TG verified

Because I have a feeling that we're going to some mixing up in the top 12 before KO3 and those trying to get in need to know.



« Last Edit: June 07, 2013, 09:53:23 AM by LMDAVE »
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Offline ChrisP

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Re: Kong Off Wildcard Qualifiers Discussion Thread
« Reply #41 on: June 08, 2013, 12:00:07 AM »
Chris, the only flaw with interpreting the "line" at #12 is some of those that have been in there since last year have really increased their game, even if their PB hasn't increased yet. (A lot of the top 12 are not active streamers now, so it's a big mystery). Kyle Goewart has always been a mystery. He just pops up and submits a score. Kyle's a guy who puts up a killscreen at KO2 right after Wiebe and only 5K behind Steve's score and only gets a golf clap after hearing 10 minutes "Wiebe Wiebe Wiebe!!" when he did his. And also finished in the top 5. I didn't hear his name mentioned in the "Gang of 5". Who knows where his game is now.

Pace is such an over looked factor now, because it doesn't really show up unless you reach the killscreen. My PB, for example,  went from1.015M to 1.026M. Doesn't seem like much, except my 1.026M game ended 45K before the killscreen, and my level of play has been increased even more than that now. So, if a new player comes along and killscreens at 1.025M, pointwise it looks like they are at the same level, but they arent yet. Making the transistion to 1.1M pace is quite a leap.


Excellent points, especially about Kyle. He's clearly very, very good, he was able to "bring it" at the KO2 and come within a hair of 4th place and doesn't get much credit for it.

And I would certainly put you into the category of player that's above (or at least in the top of) the big "cluster" group. When you cash in on one of your big-pace games, it will seal the deal, just as it will when Ross finally gets what's coming to him. But like you said, pace is a very tough thing for people to see and recognize unless they're looking for it.

And I actually see what Mitch is getting at. I wasn't dismissing his perspective by any means. There's something to be said for keeping the qualification more, I don't know, "cruel"  ;D It forces people to try harder.

No easy answers though, that's for sure...
« Last Edit: June 08, 2013, 12:03:07 AM by ChrisP »
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4 Quarters :-* - 800K Avg. Per Qtr. :o - No Restarts 8) - No Proof :'(

7/26/2013   Coin 35,946   710,800   18-1
7/28/2013   Coin 35,947   903,700   22-1
8/16/2013   Coin 35,948   694,100   17-6
8/17/2013   Coin 35,949   893,100   22-1

3,201,700: the $1 World Record?
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Offline danman123456

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Re: Kong Off Wildcard Qualifiers Discussion Thread
« Reply #42 on: June 08, 2013, 09:03:56 AM »
There really isn't a one answer fits all here. There are enough people that can put up big scores and yes I feel anything can happen over just 2 days that it truly is anyone's game. Yes some people are better then others its that way in EVERYTHING but they best doesn't always win because they have an off day and the guy under then plays outta his shoes.

There is always a problem with all of this when you don't have some type of yearly qualifier or contest like every other sport on the planet pretty much does :)

Pace is great but no one wins a tournament because "Well he was on a 1.25 pace thru 12 levels so he had the highest pace give him the trophy". So for now the "bar" is set with the PB / TG states and that is flawed because you are using ONE number put up typically over hundreds (maybe 1000's) of games played and got that one or 2 scenarios where everything worked right (The game was generous and you didn't make mistakes yourself). 

At some level having yearly qualifiers for the Kong-Off Top 12 slots itself really makes the most sense to me. Giving the "Top 12" 4 qualifying tournaments to make it into the Top 12 seems a great way to validate the top players at that time and gives you enough of a sample to take some of the randomness out of it. It also validates Dave's argument against his score versus current Pace.

Again there is no perfect solution I think but so far it's being handled pretty well and it's great to see that there is an open dialog as well. :)

I think the wildcards add an interesting aspect to it all as that talent pool is getting respectable so who knows its possible one time that a WC'rd might just win it all. Hey it happens once in a blue moon in the NFL :)
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Offline JohnTheLawnMan

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Re: Kong Off Wildcard Qualifiers Discussion Thread
« Reply #43 on: June 09, 2013, 07:14:34 AM »
So for now the "bar" is set with the PB / TG states and that is flawed because you are using ONE number put up typically over hundreds (maybe 1000's) of games played and got that one or 2 scenarios where everything worked right (The game was generous and you didn't make mistakes yourself). 

This is exactly why we decided to to take the to 3 winners of the next 3 wild card rematches.  To make it true tournament style qualification.  In a tournament, you have to perform under pressure, on that day.  The best "player" doesn't always win in a tournament.  The best competitor does.  It takes more than being the best at a the game to win a tournament.

I think people are confusing determining the best "player" with the best "competitor."  There's no doubt in my mind that Ross is the best non pro "player" (basing pro being one who has his own machine at the Kong Off.).  But Ross played just above average at KO2 (average based on Wild Card Division. (690K)).  This is why we didn't go with taking the top 9 best scores from the last 3 WCR's to qualify.  We wanted a true tournament qualification.  And with it being 3 tournaments to qualify, EVERYONE gets 3 chances to step up their play.  Also, if you don't pre qualify, you can still qualify live at KO3

But alas, I believe I may be the last of a dying breed...  One who believes there are winners and losers...

In this day and age, it isn't "fair" to put people together and compete head to head and determine a winner.  Because it just isn't "fair" to say one is better than the other.  That's all "pace" is.  An excuse to say you won when you really lost.  "I died at 465k and came in 15th place.  But I was on a 1.1 pace!"  Give me a break....

The Wild Card Announcement last week was a preliminary announcement to get the ball rolling on the Wild Card Pre Qualification.  Stay tuned for complete KO3 announcement.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2013, 10:44:42 AM by JohnTheLawnMan »
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Offline LMDAVE

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Re: Kong Off Wildcard Qualifiers Discussion Thread
« Reply #44 on: June 09, 2013, 07:54:10 AM »
So for now the "bar" is set with the PB / TG states and that is flawed because you are using ONE number put up typically over hundreds (maybe 1000's) of games played and got that one or 2 scenarios where everything worked right (The game was generous and you didn't make mistakes yourself). 


I'm not completely sure what you're getting at here, but it kind of sounds like scores in the top 12 were a lucky break-through over 1000's of attempts and the gamer has trouble doing it again. And and that is just not true. For me, once I get a new personal best, I don't try duplicate it any more, you up your game to the next level, in my case (and many others in the top12) that new goal is 1.1M. It's a major change in game play to switch from low 1M to 1.1M.

The way things are now, there is no reason to even try to duplicate the current top12 score if you're already in it. As long as it's good, I (and others) can keep shooting for that 1.1M+ game. IF something happened and we had to play a 1.03M game to get our position back, well just revert back to the old style (which is becomes a little easier after playing 1.1M for a while) and reclaim a spot in the top12.

I still don't really see a flaw in having a baseline number to qualify for a top 12 dedicated machine. It's open for everyone over a one year period.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2013, 07:56:31 AM by LMDAVE »
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