Author Topic: Kong Off Wildcard Qualifiers Discussion Thread  (Read 11417 times)

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Offline ChrisP

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Kong Off Wildcard Qualifiers Discussion Thread
« on: June 04, 2013, 10:43:13 PM »
So just to update everybody, as of this evening Cat has my story about the format for the Wildcard Division at the KO3, and how the next three Wildcard Rematches will factor into it.

So I would expect it to be up on TG at some point within the next couple of days.

There will be much to discuss, so I'll just stick this thread here as a placeholder.
http://donkeykongblog.blogspot.com

4 Quarters :-* - 800K Avg. Per Qtr. :o - No Restarts 8) - No Proof :'(

7/26/2013   Coin 35,946   710,800   18-1
7/28/2013   Coin 35,947   903,700   22-1
8/16/2013   Coin 35,948   694,100   17-6
8/17/2013   Coin 35,949   893,100   22-1

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Offline ChrisP

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Re: Kong Off Wildcard Qualifiers Discussion Thread
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2013, 10:46:28 AM »
Aright, it's up now.

http://www.twingalaxies.com/article/2391/the-kong-off-3-starts-now-wildcard-division-qualifier-tournaments/

However, even though I'm probably just being picky and micro-managey, you might find it easier to read the mock-up version that I uploaded to my own webspace (the text is the same, but the image in the middle comes off more the way I intended, and I'm also not crazy about the low-contrast text color on the latest TG articles):
http://chris.psaros.com/tg-article/wildcard-qualifiers.html

I also wanted to say, for what it's worth, that Cat has been a lovely individual during this process. Just throwing it out there...
« Last Edit: June 05, 2013, 10:51:25 AM by ChrisP »
http://donkeykongblog.blogspot.com

4 Quarters :-* - 800K Avg. Per Qtr. :o - No Restarts 8) - No Proof :'(

7/26/2013   Coin 35,946   710,800   18-1
7/28/2013   Coin 35,947   903,700   22-1
8/16/2013   Coin 35,948   694,100   17-6
8/17/2013   Coin 35,949   893,100   22-1

3,201,700: the $1 World Record?
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Offline LMDAVE

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Re: Kong Off Wildcard Qualifiers Discussion Thread
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2013, 10:52:51 AM »
I was just reading that. That's all a pretty interesting concept. Is that official now and bought off as the KO3 wildcard tournament?

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Offline ChrisP

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Re: Kong Off Wildcard Qualifiers Discussion Thread
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2013, 11:10:24 AM »
Yeah, that's John and Eric's plan, I just wrote it up for them.
http://donkeykongblog.blogspot.com

4 Quarters :-* - 800K Avg. Per Qtr. :o - No Restarts 8) - No Proof :'(

7/26/2013   Coin 35,946   710,800   18-1
7/28/2013   Coin 35,947   903,700   22-1
8/16/2013   Coin 35,948   694,100   17-6
8/17/2013   Coin 35,949   893,100   22-1

3,201,700: the $1 World Record?
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Offline Milehighdt

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Re: Kong Off Wildcard Qualifiers Discussion Thread
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2013, 11:29:44 AM »
Quote
At the Kong Off 2, with almost four times as many wildcard contestants as available machines

I think that should read over 4 times(2 cabs had 5 players and 2 had four)

I like the concept and have only one little problem with it. The player with the best qualifying score only gets to play one day :-[, but has to compete with players who had two days or effectively a day and a half since day 2 players share cabs. He gets a free pass as compensation but I would trade that for the extra day and choice of cabs. If I'm going to the Kong Off, I'm going to PLAY!
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Offline ChrisP

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Re: Kong Off Wildcard Qualifiers Discussion Thread
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2013, 11:38:12 AM »
I thought about that too Jeff, and it's probably the weakest element of these rules. It's tricky, though. There's some trade-off going on. The champ starts with a disadvantage, because he has one fewer day to play, and everybody else's scores carry over from Round 2 while his will be zero.

On the other hand, not actually having to DO anything to get to Round 3 is pretty cool, since he gets to start at a point in the tourney where the majority of the players (4 out of 7) are guaranteed a prize. His odds of finishing in the money are extremely favorable.

Maybe the champ can choose to start on Round 1 and fight his way through anyway, in order to bank a score? And if he doesn't get through Round 1 or 2, he still has "immunity" and plays Round 3 regardless?

Since I've had more time to think about this than the rest of you, I've noticed some other things.

The Round 1 bye goes to the top 3 in each tournament, and any "repeaters" get the bye based on their highest-scoring tournament.

This means that some people can benefit, or get screwed, in interesting ways, based on how the tourneys play out.

Let's imagine that the standings end up like this (fake names - bolds get the Round 1 bye):

Tournament #1
1 Bob 990
2 Pete 950
3 Sam 880
4 Jim 860

5 Todd 830

Tournament #2
1 Bob 995
2 Alex 975
3 Joe 970

4 Ray 940
5 Matt 920
6 Ron 900

Tournament #3
1 Max 820
2 Dick 800
3 Jeff 795


In the second tourney, Bob improved his score by 5K, which means that Jim, who came in fourth during the first tournament, now qualifies with his 860K score because Bob's score in the first tourney no longer counts, which retroactively "upgrades" Jim to 3rd place for tourney #1.

But notice how Ray got 940K in the second tournament, which beat both Sam and Jim's first tourney scores by a lot, but Ray doesn't get a spot because he came in 4th in his tourney. Matt and Ron also get screwed here because they're ahead of Sam and Jim too.

The third tourney has weak scores, but that could happen. Maybe not as dramatic as my example, but it could. Could have a low turnout for some reason, or nobody has it together that day, or whatever, and the top scores in that tourney are significantly lower than in the other two.

Now Ray, Matt, and Ron are screwed even worse (and Todd from tourney #1 gets screwed too). Max, Dick, and Jeff in the third tourney get to qualify simply because the third tourney ended up being softer.

So Ray can end up being the fifth highest player overall by score, yet not be among the nine who get the Round 1 bye!

I don't think this situation is particularly unlikely either. In fact, odds are good that it probably WILL happen to at least one person, whose score will get caught in the gears in this way.

I pointed that out to John and Eric - that if you work from three independent score lists and just go by 1st, 2nd, 3rd on each it ends up being very possible for players with lower scores to take the "skip Round 1" spots from players with higher scores.

According to them though, they DID think about it, and it was intentional. And I can see the merit of doing it this way. It just changes the tournament strategy in certain ways, and adds a "twist" element.

It's also interesting that anybody in 4th, or 5th, is technically on "standby" until all three tourneys have played out, because any of the top 3 repeating in a later tourney (but with a lower score than their best) would bump the standby spots into the qualifier spot.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2013, 12:32:50 PM by ChrisP »
http://donkeykongblog.blogspot.com

4 Quarters :-* - 800K Avg. Per Qtr. :o - No Restarts 8) - No Proof :'(

7/26/2013   Coin 35,946   710,800   18-1
7/28/2013   Coin 35,947   903,700   22-1
8/16/2013   Coin 35,948   694,100   17-6
8/17/2013   Coin 35,949   893,100   22-1

3,201,700: the $1 World Record?
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Offline mikegmi2

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Re: Kong Off Wildcard Qualifiers Discussion Thread
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2013, 12:15:23 PM »
I thought of the same points you guys brought up, and great analysis Chris.

Yea Jeff, if you're gonna make the trip out there, most would want to play every day.  I mean, you could go all out and put up 1.1M as a Wildcard, right?

As much as everyone might hate to admit it, an online version of the Kong Off is probably superior to the Kong Off, as far as the competition goes. Everyone playing at home, in their own environment, on their own machines...is much more of a level playing field than what the Kong Off is currently.

I'm not suggesting the Kong Off be replaced by any online Kong Off, but maybe a "DK Online Open" (played maybe 6 months after the Kong Off) where everyone is welcome to play, would be something that would get as much, or more attention than the Wildcard Rematch is getting currently.
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Offline ChrisP

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Re: Kong Off Wildcard Qualifiers Discussion Thread
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2013, 12:46:23 PM »
In terms of the purity of the competition, you are right.

Honestly I think of the Kong Off first and foremost as a get-together/publicity event.
http://donkeykongblog.blogspot.com

4 Quarters :-* - 800K Avg. Per Qtr. :o - No Restarts 8) - No Proof :'(

7/26/2013   Coin 35,946   710,800   18-1
7/28/2013   Coin 35,947   903,700   22-1
8/16/2013   Coin 35,948   694,100   17-6
8/17/2013   Coin 35,949   893,100   22-1

3,201,700: the $1 World Record?
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Offline JCHarrist

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Re: Kong Off Wildcard Qualifiers Discussion Thread
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2013, 01:03:41 PM »
Another potential wrinkle is what if someone cracks the TG top 12 during one of these Wildcard events. Does he get a seat in the main event then? And what happens to the previous #12? Is he now out in the cold without even a wildcard spot?
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Offline LMDAVE

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Re: Kong Off Wildcard Qualifiers Discussion Thread
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2013, 01:15:05 PM »
I was thinking that also Jeff about what if I got knocked out the top 12, the only thing I can say, is I'm free to up my score any time from now until KO3.

I would think anyone who cracks into the top 12 would still have to have their score TG verified via their submittal process, so do all the proper recording to be safe. That is  as long as the KO3 requirement stays  "top 12 TG verified"
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Offline ChrisP

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Re: Kong Off Wildcard Qualifiers Discussion Thread
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2013, 01:22:19 PM »
Yes! I'd thought about that too Jeff.

That would be pretty brutal if somebody in the 3rd tourney bumped one of the main-eventers down, that person suddenly finding themselves with just a couple of weeks to retake their position, being unable to do so, and then having to slum it in Round 1 of the wildcard division.

Ouch...

Also, I'm not 100% clear on whether verified necessarily means "TG verified". It didn't last year. You just had to be on the TG list OR stream your game, which is how Ben got in without actually having an official score.

Ben is actually in the mega-sweet spot. Since his score is considered qualification-valid, but isn't official TG, he gets to play in the rematches AND in the main lineup.
http://donkeykongblog.blogspot.com

4 Quarters :-* - 800K Avg. Per Qtr. :o - No Restarts 8) - No Proof :'(

7/26/2013   Coin 35,946   710,800   18-1
7/28/2013   Coin 35,947   903,700   22-1
8/16/2013   Coin 35,948   694,100   17-6
8/17/2013   Coin 35,949   893,100   22-1

3,201,700: the $1 World Record?
Twitch TV  Streamer DK Killscreener Crazy Kong Killscreener DKF Blogger DK Jr. Killscreener

Offline Milehighdt

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Re: Kong Off Wildcard Qualifiers Discussion Thread
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2013, 01:42:43 PM »
Quote
That would be pretty brutal if somebody in the 3rd tourney bumped one of the main-eventers down, that person suddenly finding themselves with just a couple of weeks to retake their position, being unable to do so, and then having to slum it in Round 1 of the wildcard division.

This is the just the outcome that movies are made for. A great player is shut out  :'( and has to battle his way back through the ranks to raise the trophy once again  ;D. Rocky..Rocky..Rocky  8). Now I envy  the guy sitting twelfth. I give him at least a 90% chance to be playing on his own cab Sunday if he gets sent down.
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Offline LMDAVE

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Re: Kong Off Wildcard Qualifiers Discussion Thread
« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2013, 02:23:42 PM »
Also, I'm not 100% clear on whether verified necessarily means "TG verified". It didn't last year. You just had to be on the TG list OR stream your game, which is how Ben got in without actually having an official score.

Ben is actually in the mega-sweet spot. Since his score is considered qualification-valid, but isn't official TG, he gets to play in the rematches AND in the main lineup.

This was something I was always confused about since the wildcard tournaments started. Wildcard came about as all the KO2 players who were not main contestants in KO2 saying "lets do it again online!"

If the eligibility for WC was basically anyone who is not eligible for KO2 main event, then I was curious about Ben's entry since he was in KO2.

So, technically if my 1.015M TG gets bumped out the top 12, and my personal best streamed score of 1.026M is still in the top 12, then that should be the score to go with. I don't know if TG is going to clarify that or not, but according to their statement, it's top 12 TG verified.
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Offline danman123456

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Re: Kong Off Wildcard Qualifiers Discussion Thread
« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2013, 04:40:30 PM »
I posted this on Facebook anand some of what I originally posted has been covered here.

1. Friday is not a Kong-Off 3 day correct? ALL 20 machines will be available for that round! Think of this as the qualifier to get into the US Open in tennis. This is a GREAT setup and I think this is perfect to accommodate a large number of WC entries that did not place in the top 9. If they have 20 entries then everyone gets a dedicated machine! Even if you get say a crazy 40 more entries that still allows for a minimum of a half of a day of competition! Just draw numbers and go in order. 1 - 40. 1-20 play first and then when a machine opens up #21 plays, next machine #22, so on. Give you 5 minutes to show up when your "slot" appears and if you "miss" it you are skipped that time and then when you get back you get the next machine available (or just give you 10-15 minutes and if you aren't there you are skipped that "round". I think either work). All scores reset for Sat.

2. Personally I think the winner of the WC events should get a dedicated machine on Sat and Sun. That should be the prize for coming in first place over THREE tournaments. Your "lucky dedicated entry #13". There are several ways to make this happen but instead of 8 moving on only 6 move on to Sat.
     a. This gives the #1 Seed a machine on Sat/Sun and the 2nd-9th+6 from Friday (14) swap on the next 7 machines free. Start with 2-8, then #9-How they placed score wise. Again when a machine opens up you play on it. That is better IMO then just dedicating 2 people per machine.

3. If not a dedicated machine then top 7 move on From Friday. Scores reset and then the #1 seed gets to compete on Saturday as well. The "prize" for winning the WC tournaments is no matter what your score on Saturday you get to move on to Sun. This also works pretty well and doesn't "penalize" you with only one day of a chance to put up a score in an 8 hour window. More I think about it this might even be better.

4. I think everyone should be able to play in the WC event regardless of top 12 rank. If your in the Top 12 at the time then your score is just a "possible" entry for KO3 but not eligible for any of the WC prizes. Should you get pushed out at the last minute because someone gets 1,040,000 in the WC event that person is now a "Top 12" person and 2-10 become the 1-9 entries. This means that the person who go "bumped" gets his WC score to count.

5. Those "top 9" also have to commit to going to the KO3 remember and some may not be able to make it so you just work down the list.

Overall this is pretty awesome and everyone knows exactly where the stand. I'm stoked!
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Offline danman123456

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Re: Kong Off Wildcard Qualifiers Discussion Thread
« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2013, 05:11:42 PM »
I understand the thought process and whatever is decided is cool with me but why not a simple solution? Round 1 scores are just that. Round 1 scores scores do NOT place in the next 2 rounds regarding KO3 entries. Just for prize money and overall rankings when done. (So in your scenerio Bob gets to use his 995k as the Overall score he uses but it doesn't "count" for round 2 scores so in that case 2-4 would be 1-3 for KO3 entries. Round 2 - Top 3 do not place for Round 3 again except for prize money and "overall top 9 rankings". This way when you come in top 3 in ANY of the tournaments your guaranteed to place for the KO3. Scores in KO1 didn't count for KO2 so Round 1 scores shouldn't have anything to do with Round #2 and so on. I support whatever Eric/John and Richie/Jordan want to do but I do think the "If you qualified Round 1 your in and now we have the "next" batch of people able to try and qualify makes the most sense and is the "fairest" way to deal with this. Someone from a previous round score should not have the ability to move into the final 9 because someone who already posted a top 3 score got a "higher" score in a later round. It should be how you score in the final rounds not the first one. :)
 
I thought about that too Jeff, and it's probably the weakest element of these rules. It's tricky, though. There's some trade-off going on. The champ starts with a disadvantage, because he has one fewer day to play, and everybody else's scores carry over from Round 2 while his will be zero.

On the other hand, not actually having to DO anything to get to Round 3 is pretty cool, since he gets to start at a point in the tourney where the majority of the players (4 out of 7) are guaranteed a prize. His odds of finishing in the money are extremely favorable.

Maybe the champ can choose to start on Round 1 and fight his way through anyway, in order to bank a score? And if he doesn't get through Round 1 or 2, he still has "immunity" and plays Round 3 regardless?

Since I've had more time to think about this than the rest of you, I've noticed some other things.

The Round 1 bye goes to the top 3 in each tournament, and any "repeaters" get the bye based on their highest-scoring tournament.

This means that some people can benefit, or get screwed, in interesting ways, based on how the tourneys play out.

Let's imagine that the standings end up like this (fake names - bolds get the Round 1 bye):

Tournament #1
1 Bob 990
2 Pete 950
3 Sam 880
4 Jim 860

5 Todd 830

Tournament #2
1 Bob 995
2 Alex 975
3 Joe 970

4 Ray 940
5 Matt 920
6 Ron 900

Tournament #3
1 Max 820
2 Dick 800
3 Jeff 795


In the second tourney, Bob improved his score by 5K, which means that Jim, who came in fourth during the first tournament, now qualifies with his 860K score because Bob's score in the first tourney no longer counts, which retroactively "upgrades" Jim to 3rd place for tourney #1.

But notice how Ray got 940K in the second tournament, which beat both Sam and Jim's first tourney scores by a lot, but Ray doesn't get a spot because he came in 4th in his tourney. Matt and Ron also get screwed here because they're ahead of Sam and Jim too.

The third tourney has weak scores, but that could happen. Maybe not as dramatic as my example, but it could. Could have a low turnout for some reason, or nobody has it together that day, or whatever, and the top scores in that tourney are significantly lower than in the other two.

Now Ray, Matt, and Ron are screwed even worse (and Todd from tourney #1 gets screwed too). Max, Dick, and Jeff in the third tourney get to qualify simply because the third tourney ended up being softer.

So Ray can end up being the fifth highest player overall by score, yet not be among the nine who get the Round 1 bye!

I don't think this situation is particularly unlikely either. In fact, odds are good that it probably WILL happen to at least one person, whose score will get caught in the gears in this way.

I pointed that out to John and Eric - that if you work from three independent score lists and just go by 1st, 2nd, 3rd on each it ends up being very possible for players with lower scores to take the "skip Round 1" spots from players with higher scores.

According to them though, they DID think about it, and it was intentional. And I can see the merit of doing it this way. It just changes the tournament strategy in certain ways, and adds a "twist" element.

It's also interesting that anybody in 4th, or 5th, is technically on "standby" until all three tourneys have played out, because any of the top 3 repeating in a later tourney (but with a lower score than their best) would bump the standby spots into the qualifier spot.
DK High : 1,059,700 (Lvl 22-1 KS!);
DK KS Speedrun : 1 Hr 16 Min 40 Sec - World Record!
DK Lvl 1 - 1: 12,400
Fix-It Felix Jr - 297,000 (World Record)
Fix-IT Felix Jr 1 Hour Limit - 177,000
Fix-It Felix Jr KS Speedrun - 1h33
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