Author Topic: Donkey Kong: Masters Edition  (Read 6040 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline VON

  • Elite Member
  • *
  • Posts: 434
Donkey Kong: Masters Edition
« on: April 15, 2013, 10:25:33 PM »
Most of you know that I am not at all a fan of D2K: Jumpman Returns.  In short, I find the levels too linear, too tedious, and ultimately uninspired.  For me, the sequel failed to expand upon some of the original's best attributes, such as the opportunity and incentive for creative point-pressing and semi-random fireball behavior, and instead dulled the creative and random aspects of the game. 

The reason for this abomination is simple: its creator was not a Donkey Kong player and had no true appreciation for what makes Donkey Kong a great game.  Case in point, the level 22 killscreen bug and the score rollover were taken out of the D2K code, yet a level 14 killscreen was unintentionally created, making it impossible to ever score over a million - hilarious.  And what's up with the "Trash Compactor" board (not sure what D2K players call this screen)?  Why are there 6 platforms to traverse in the upper left of the screen that are completely devoid of threat?  This is called "lazy game design".  Why is there an irretrievable prize on the "Heart" board?  Same reason.

Anyways, anyways, I digress.  The point of this thread is not for me to share all the things I dislike about D2K.  The point of this thread is for genuine lovers of Donkey Kong to share how they would design a Donkey Kong reboot, a modern retro Donkey Kong

I encourage everyone to share every idea, whether it be a fully new level design or just an improvement to one of the classic layouts.  Let's get creative and design the ultimate Donkey Kong experience. 

   
« Last Edit: April 16, 2013, 09:55:46 AM by VON »
Twitch TV  Streamer DK Killscreener Wildcard Rematch Champion DKF Blogger DK 1 Million Point Scorer DK 1.1 Million Point Scorer DK Online Open #2 Winner

Offline VON

  • Elite Member
  • *
  • Posts: 434
Re: Donkey Kong: Master's Edition
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2013, 10:28:04 PM »
A few ideas to get things started...

I want fireballs to have the ability to merge and form "super fireballs".

I want springs to be used on boards outside the elevators.

I want to be able to throw the hammer.

The attract mode should feature Jumpman just completely shredding (basically the exact opposite of the D2K attract mode).
« Last Edit: April 15, 2013, 10:32:15 PM by VON »
Twitch TV  Streamer DK Killscreener Wildcard Rematch Champion DKF Blogger DK 1 Million Point Scorer DK 1.1 Million Point Scorer DK Online Open #2 Winner

Offline ChrisP

  • Spring Jumper
  • *
  • Posts: 1652
  • I'm going to jump next to your leg.
    • Donkey Blog
Re: Donkey Kong: Master's Edition
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2013, 11:07:33 PM »
D2K definitely has its flaws, I agree with all of those you mentioned (particularly the accidental kill screen that spites the millions digit).

I would also welcome more features to the overall kit, like the ability to play the Japanese version, playcounters, a secondary volume control (so you don't have to open the cabinet and wrestle with that knob behind the monitor just to turn the thing up and down) more fine-grained control over the high score lists, etc. He should also fix his freakin' kill screen! I'm ready for version "3.0", and would happily pay money for it.

I kinda like the game though anyway, largely on principle. Just the audacity to make a retro-sequel that actually plugs into and plays on the original hardware, that's really admirable and neat. And one can only ask so much of a "one man band" planning, designing, coding, drawing, and conceptualizing everything. I think it's cool, but I do have to wonder how awesome the game might have been if there had been a team working on it, all of them bringing 30 years of advances in video game design, play mechanics, and theory to the project. Even just three or four guys, bringing criticism, ideas, etc. to the table, would have improved it.

I would also say that a lot of what makes DK great, and the depth that we find in it, was a total accident. Some of it was the result of very good "design instinct" by the talented individuals involved, but other things (like the kill screen) just happened.

As for features in a new game, I'll get my mind to work on that...
http://donkeykongblog.blogspot.com

4 Quarters :-* - 800K Avg. Per Qtr. :o - No Restarts 8) - No Proof :'(

7/26/2013   Coin 35,946   710,800   18-1
7/28/2013   Coin 35,947   903,700   22-1
8/16/2013   Coin 35,948   694,100   17-6
8/17/2013   Coin 35,949   893,100   22-1

3,201,700: the $1 World Record?
Twitch TV  Streamer DK Killscreener Crazy Kong Killscreener DKF Blogger

Offline VON

  • Elite Member
  • *
  • Posts: 434
Re: Donkey Kong: Master's Edition
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2013, 12:08:34 AM »
Just the audacity to make a retro-sequel that actually plugs into and plays on the original hardware, that's really admirable and neat.

Completely agree.  I wish more people were so inspired.

And just for yucks, check out the "Hellevatorz" (attached).

« Last Edit: April 16, 2013, 12:13:07 AM by VON »
Twitch TV  Streamer DK Killscreener Wildcard Rematch Champion DKF Blogger DK 1 Million Point Scorer DK 1.1 Million Point Scorer DK Online Open #2 Winner

Offline lakeman421

  • Spring Jumper
  • *
  • Posts: 504
Re: Donkey Kong: Master's Edition
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2013, 12:10:36 AM »
I like playing DK2 mainly because it is such a challenging game.  I do not count it as a classic game (people at Funspot see it and pretend to reminisce like they played it back in the day) and I wouldnt put it in the same category as the other 3 DK games.  But I believe there is potential to expand the concept of the game into more modern games like when Pac Man created a new version for the Xbox 360 and had a world competition.  I think there is more potential in that, but that is my opinion.
World Record holder for most fireballs stuck in rivet holes on a single board-5
DK PB of 1,206,900
Crazy Kong 764,500 (MAME)
Crazy Kong 681,500 (Arcade)
Stratovox 174,400
Death Race 33 "Zombie" Kills
Death Race Doubles 41
Twitch TV  Streamer DK Killscreener DK 1 Million Point Scorer Crazy Kong Killscreener DK 1.1 Million Point Scorer DK Online Open #3 Winner DK Online Open #5 Winner DK Online Open #6 Winner DK 1st Man Million DK 1.2 Million Point Scorer Kong-Off 5 Champion Crazy Kong Arcade WR Holder DKF Blogger Crazy Kong MAME WR Holder

Offline marinomitch13

  • Strategy Moderator
  • Spring Jumper
  • *
  • Posts: 1773
    • How to Play DK
Re: Donkey Kong: Master's Edition
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2013, 01:43:18 AM »
I've always envisioned an achievement based DK game that gave you more abilities as you slowly fulfilled achievements within the game. This game could either be played on a 'one time mode' -where once you run out of men the game is over and all the collected abilities are lost, or else on 'play though mode' where even after your game ends, all the achievements and abilities you've gained would stay.

Granted, this would be a tough concept to think through so as not to make some achievements too hard while also not making some abilities too good, but here is an example of what I'm thinking:

Start game:

Jumpman can only move right. You are on the barrel screen. There are only 1000 bonus seconds on the timer!

You move all the way right and hit the wall, and all of a sudden a blinking box appears up at the top of the screen that says you have acquired an ability and to push P1.

You push P1 and a menu opens up that shows you a whole checklist of achievements, and so far you have only gotten one. Most achievements are simple, but they are only hard because of the abilities you will ultimately only have by the time you need to try to achieve them. The "Touch the right wall" achievement tells you that you can now move left. You see another achievement is to touch the left wall.

You push P1 and it starts you back at the beginning of the screen with 1000 still on the timer, but this time you can move left.

You touch the left wall, and the same menu up top flashes.

You press P1 to find out now you can jump. The achievement need to be able to climb up ladders (but not down) is to jump 5 barrels in a row.

You start the game again and achieve this.

Next you need to need to get to the 6th girder with only these abilities to earn 1000 more bonus time for this screen.

You do this.

Next you need to finish 1-1 with only these abilities to acquire the ability to climb down ladders.

You beat 1-1. On the rivet stage you realize that you can't grab hammers (it won't let you) nor can you remove rivets! However, there is full normal bonus time. You check the menu, and realize you need to leach 3000 points off of Kong amidst all the free roaming fireballs to earn the ability to use just the top hammer on this screen!

You go and achieve this. You still can't use the bottom hammer quite yet though.

Next, in order to be able to clear rivets, you need to get 5 fireball smashes with the top hammer.

You go and do this.

Etc. Etc. Etc.

Ultimately there would be some achievements incorporated into the game that would be tricky or quite hard. There is a wide range that people could come up with, and I can see some achievements being related to each other in very interesting ways such that you need to do a certain one before you can get others. Sometimes even specific screen is in incomplete and impassable until you fulfill some achievements (like imagine if platforms were missing on the elevator board or if 30 fireballs spawned right away on the pie factory!) At the start of the game more time would be spent more or less getting the game back to what we are all used to, by 'restoring' it through unlocking achievements. Later on, it game would have the more typical DK feel and the challenges would have more to do with surviving or getting points, while some of the harder ones would actually be a lot like some of the challenge ideas people have posted elsewhere on this forum.

Many of the rewards for achievements would solely have to do with affecting Jumpman's abilities, and sometimes only in rare situations. The trick would be too never make abilities so powerful that it absolutely ruins the natural feel of the game we all love. Also, you would want the game to still have the characteristic of getting harder the more you try to point press, so these abilities would have to basically increase the potential of what people can do to try to get points, without just giving the player an easy way to cop out of difficult stuff by exploiting a silly glitch or loophole in pressing strategy that makes it all too easy. The better abilities would probably have to be either temporary or conditional. Below are some I have thought up, but the sky's the limit:

-The ability to wield a hammer on ladders.
-The ability to jump with the hammer.
-The ability to sacrifice points in exchange for other temporary abilities or to change certain elements of the game (Maybe like freezing the fireballs for 1 second per 10k points, or 20k to turn hammers into super hammers which give 10x the points on smashes, 2k to stop the conveyors or springs for 1 second...etc).
-Make Pauline's items give temporary upgrades or affect the current screen temporarily.
-The ability to do super jumps upon landing the first time if you hold down the jump button during the entire first jump.
-The ability to go to 2x speed for 3 seconds by doing some sort of up-down-up-down motion while on the girder, but time clicks down 2x faster as well during this period while the rest of the gameplay is normal speed.
-The ability to do double jumps in the air or wall jumps by jumping and press the up direction at any point in the air.
-The ability to slide all the way up or down ladders super fast by pressing the jump button and an up or down direct while on ladders, however, all control is lost until the end of the ladder is reached
-The ability to jump onto ladders by the up or down direction while jumping past them in the air.
The ability to jump off of ladders by holding a left or right direction while on a ladder and pressing jump.


You get the gist of it. Needless to say, I've fantasized about a game like this for quite a while! ;)
“Thou hast made us for Thyself, and our heart is restless until it finds its rest in Thee.” -Augustine, Confessions.
Twitch TV  Streamer DKF Blogger DK Killscreener

Offline ChrisP

  • Spring Jumper
  • *
  • Posts: 1652
  • I'm going to jump next to your leg.
    • Donkey Blog
Re: Donkey Kong: Master's Edition
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2013, 02:07:32 AM »
And just for yucks, check out the "Hellevatorz" (attached).

wht da...
http://donkeykongblog.blogspot.com

4 Quarters :-* - 800K Avg. Per Qtr. :o - No Restarts 8) - No Proof :'(

7/26/2013   Coin 35,946   710,800   18-1
7/28/2013   Coin 35,947   903,700   22-1
8/16/2013   Coin 35,948   694,100   17-6
8/17/2013   Coin 35,949   893,100   22-1

3,201,700: the $1 World Record?
Twitch TV  Streamer DK Killscreener Crazy Kong Killscreener DKF Blogger

Online pwnasaurus

  • Spring Jumper
  • *
  • Posts: 961
  • Taking Linderman Rock in Neutral
Re: Donkey Kong: Master's Edition
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2013, 04:32:33 AM »
And just for yucks, check out the "Hellevatorz" (attached).

wht da...

Reminds me of the final screen in the game Hunchback
Why not play some Kangaroo today?
Twitch TV  Streamer DK Killscreener DK Jr. Killscreener DKF Blogger Crazy Kong Killscreener

giv

  • Guest
Re: Donkey Kong: Master's Edition
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2013, 06:14:59 AM »
Have any of you played Donkey Kong '94 for the gameboy? You can throw the hammer up, climb a ladder and then catch the hammer on the next platform. Also super jumps and other moves.

Also the Mario vs Donkey Kong series which began on the GBA and is still going. I'm actually playing the first game in the series now. There are elements from DK, jr, smb2 mixed into a unique game where each board is a puzzle. Not exactly a DK masters edition, but the idea of giving Mario extra powers in a DK-like setting is there.

Offline LMDAVE

  • Spring Jumper
  • *
  • Posts: 603
Re: Donkey Kong: Master's Edition
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2013, 06:20:07 AM »
Most of you know that I am not at all a fan of D2K: Jumpman Returns.  In short, I find the levels too linear, too tedious, and ultimately uninspired.  For me, the sequel failed to expand upon some of the original's best attributes, such as the opportunity and incentive for creative point-pressing and semi-random fireball behavior, and instead dulled the creative and random aspects of the game. 

The reason for this abomination is simple: its creator was not a Donkey Kong player and had no true appreciation for what makes Donkey Kong a great game.  Case in point, the level 22 killscreen bug and the score rollover were taken out of the D2K code, yet a level 14 killscreen was unintentionally created, making it impossible to ever score over a million - hilarious.  And what's up with the "Trash Compactor" board (not sure what D2K players call this screen)?  Why are there 6 platforms to traverse in the upper left of the screen that are completely devoid of threat?  This is called "lazy game design".  Why is there an irretrievable prize on the "Heart" board?  Same reason.

Anyways, anyways, I digress.  The point of this thread is not for me to share all the things I dislike about D2K.  The point of this thread is for genuine lovers of Donkey Kong to share how they would design a Donkey Kong reboot, a modern retro Donkey Kong

I encourage everyone to share every idea, whether it be a fully new level design or just an improvement to one of the classic layouts.  Let's get creative and design the ultimate Donkey Kong experience. 

 

Good post. And I agree with the game being tedious and uninspiring.

It still was and very impressive programming acheivment, but I agree, the programmer wasn't a DK master to understand aspects that made DK addicting. (point pressing, seeing a score roll over, reaching a killscreen).

I find it hard to change anything about DK. I'd fix the 800 barrel jump, and perhaps give a 1600 for a 4+ object jump, and I would remove 300 pts from a blue barrel smash. Still keep randomness, maybe 500-800-1000, you should always be rewarded for blue barrel hits (getting 300 pts for a blue barrel smash jsut sucks), but fireballs can stay the same. Other than than, the game is too perfect change anything about the gameplay.

EDIT: I do love challenge stages (i.e., Mario Bros, Galaga, etc..) and a barrel jumping on one girder challenge would be great. 40 barrels come out the left on a single girder that you can not go up or down. You have to jump, back jump, forward jump, etc...just to cross all barrels. Even x_x_x  can be done with three simultaneous perfectly executed back jumps. Or you do have a wall bounce on the right to help. Would be a fun challenge. You either get the points accumulated for the jumps before you died, or a 10K perfect bonus,.


« Last Edit: April 16, 2013, 06:28:16 AM by LMDAVE »
Donkey Kong (Arcade): 1,108,100

Donkey Kong 1-1: 12,900

http://twitch.tv/LMDAVE
Twitch TV  Streamer DK Killscreener DK 1 Million Point Scorer DKF Blogger DK Online Open #1 Winner DK 1.1 Million Point Scorer

Offline lifereboot

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 72
    • http://www.lifereboot.com
Re: Donkey Kong: Master's Edition
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2013, 07:07:33 AM »
Have any of you played Donkey Kong '94 for the gameboy?


DK 94 is one of my favorite original Gameboy games.  The controls are great and the puzzles challenging.  The final level is awesome.

I've been following an "Arcadization Project" of DK 94 on KLOV, where a member there put an SNES with Super Game Boy inside wired up into a Playchoice 10 cabinet.  I don't always support modding arcade games from their original state, but it's well done, with custom DK artwork.

http://forums.arcade-museum.com/showthread.php?t=207483

lifereboot
DK personal best (arcade / 3 men) 1,037,500
http://www.lifereboot.com
DK Killscreener DK 1 Million Point Scorer

Offline lifereboot

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 72
    • http://www.lifereboot.com
Re: Donkey Kong: Master's Edition
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2013, 07:09:54 AM »
a barrel jumping on one girder challenge would be great. 40 barrels come out the left on a single girder that you can not go up or down. You have to jump, back jump, forward jump, etc...just to cross all barrels. Even x_x_x  can be done with three simultaneous perfectly executed back jumps. Or you do have a wall bounce on the right to help. Would be a fun challenge. You either get the points accumulated for the jumps before you died, or a 10K perfect bonus,.

Great idea, sounds fun and would be excellent practice for surviving tricky barrel combos.
lifereboot
DK personal best (arcade / 3 men) 1,037,500
http://www.lifereboot.com
DK Killscreener DK 1 Million Point Scorer

Offline mikegmi2

  • Elite Member
  • *
  • Posts: 433
Re: Donkey Kong: Master's Edition
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2013, 07:30:50 AM »
I agree with Dave, it's hard to add or change something about the game.  If anything, it would be to remove some of the 'traps' or 'screwings' associated with the game...so that luck would play less of a role in each game.

I'd like to see a feature added:

A feature where the same game can be replayed by another player. 

As long as you didn't go and memorize someone's game by watching it over and over, it would be fun to play through Hank's world record game, or Vincent's 2nd place game, to see if you could match their scores or do better.

I think a "difficulty rating system" could also be cool.  You could rate a game as being more difficult based on some key factors:

1. How fast, how many times, the first fireball climbs up on barrel screens (when you are unable to smash it).
2.  How many times you were forced to freestyle a Rivet screen due to the star pattern being taken away from you by rogue firefoxes.
3. How many times you had to freestyle a Pie Factory screen due to being robbed of a free pass.
4. How many times you are forced to recognize and retreat ladder climb attempts on Spring screens.

For example (keeping it simple), your Rivet difficulty rating would be a 0 if you always got the star pattern, and a 100 if you were forced to freestyle every single rivet screen.  PFDR (pie factory difficulty rating) would be 0 if you got a free pass every time, and 100 if you never got a free pass during your whole game.  Other factors would increase your DR (difficulty rating) on these screens, such as...even if you are able to run the star pattern without contest from any firefoxes, your DR would be slightly higher if you are left with 4 firefoxes on the top 2 girders, as opposed to only 3 or 2.

The idea would be to assign a higher and higher DR to a game of DK based on key situations in the game where the game itself forces you into situations where you have to react and use skill (and some luck) to survive...or lose a life.

Fireball jumps would probably earn a few DR points too (I don't think anyone would be purposely jumping fireballs to increase their DR during a game), along with other difficult situations (firefox jumps, being presented with unjumpable barrel combos where you must retreat and climb a ladder to survive, and of course FWJs (forced wall jumps), etc).

I think a DR would be kinda interesting.
Donkey Kong - 1,076,000 (arcade, KS)
Twitch TV  Streamer DK Killscreener DK 1 Million Point Scorer

Offline marky_d

  • Global Moderator
  • Spring Jumper
  • *
  • Posts: 595
Re: Donkey Kong: Master's Edition
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2013, 07:40:46 AM »
I'd like to see an "Instant Replay" featured as a cutscene, kind of like in Food Fight.
Twitch TV  Streamer DK Killscreener DK 1 Million Point Scorer DK Jr. Killscreener DK Jr. Arcade WR Holder DK 1.1 Million Point Scorer

Offline hchien

  • Spring Jumper
  • *
  • Posts: 540
Re: Donkey Kong: Master's Edition
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2013, 08:39:28 AM »
I'd like to see all that fit into 64K of RAM.
World Record for most insults to Vincent and lowest 1 hour Q*bert score: 395985
Twitch TV  Streamer DK Killscreener DK 1 Million Point Scorer DK 1.1 Million Point Scorer DK Jr. Killscreener Kong-Off 1 Champion KO4 Champion