Author Topic: Spring Theory  (Read 12887 times)

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Offline Shane_NC

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Re: Spring Theory
« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2013, 04:05:28 PM »
Well done, best thread ever
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Offline craighiphopfish

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Re: Spring Theory
« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2013, 05:39:49 PM »
This is insane
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Offline xelnia

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Re: Spring Theory
« Reply #17 on: September 02, 2013, 07:50:52 PM »
Thanks for the positive feedback everyone. I think there is still a lot more that can be gleaned from this data.

Two things I was thinking about last night:

1) Looking at the "wiggle room" charts shows that the springs can actually be grouped together in classes. It appears that regardless of what the leading spring is, you'll always have the same amount of wiggle room with a 1 or 2 spring, 3 or 4, 6 or 7, 8 or 9, 10 or 11, 12 or 13, and 14 or 15. For example, if the leading spring is an 8, then I have the same amount of wiggle room if the trailing spring is a 6 or 7 (21 frames from 2nd spot, or 16 frames from 1st spot).

2) I don't think I'd ever be comfortable trying to sneak between springs that have a single-digit frame of wiggle room (a [7,9], for example). So, the practical approach to using those wiggle charts might involve determining my own reaction time and using that to determine a safe range of spring combos to go on from either side. If my reaction time is, say, 200 ms on average that would be equivalent to 12 frames. So, then I subtract 12 from all of the values in the wiggle room charts to give me a practical, safe range of spring combos.

On second thought, I'd better get comfortable with it...the frames of wiggle room for D2K springs from Level 10 to Level 13 are all single-digit.  :o
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Offline mikegmi2

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Re: Spring Theory
« Reply #18 on: September 04, 2013, 06:43:49 AM »
I'm really impressed, awesome job!

I'm also glad that this confirms what I've told a few people regarding not having to go on long springs only...and like Hank said above, the second spring is much more important than the first.

So cool that someone did this, and did such a great job breaking it down and analyzing it.  Amazing.
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Offline hooch66

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Re: Spring Theory
« Reply #19 on: September 04, 2013, 11:54:22 AM »
Thread bookmarked. This is some awesome stuff. I'm not sure I grasp it all, but it is still awesome.
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Offline ChrisP

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Re: Spring Theory
« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2015, 12:52:55 AM »
Obviously I read this legendary thread when it was first posted, but never really *studied* it.

Doing thatt now for the first time, since my spring game has gone to absolute shit.

Thank you!
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Offline dnickolas

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Re: Spring Theory
« Reply #21 on: July 10, 2016, 01:49:37 AM »
I'm guessing that I do springs incorrectly. By the time I know I have to retreat I'm already moving up the ladder and can only make it back to safety if it's the absolute "worst" spring for the one I left on.

So... after "take off" do you guys have the entry spot (not first bounce) memorized to allow for retreat, or should I not be starting up the ladder until the follower lands at a safe spot for when I took off? Would I have enough time to climb if I did that?

I feel like an idiot dying as often as I do on the most survivable level in the game. I expect to die on barrels when I group a little too long and a fireball runs up on the right super fast. I expect to get screwed on pie factories once in a while. And I expect to get screwed on rivets. But not springs!

Offline xelnia

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Re: Spring Theory
« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2016, 01:08:29 AM »
I'm guessing that I do springs incorrectly. By the time I know I have to retreat I'm already moving up the ladder and can only make it back to safety if it's the absolute "worst" spring for the one I left on.

So... after "take off" do you guys have the entry spot (not first bounce) memorized to allow for retreat, or should I not be starting up the ladder until the follower lands at a safe spot for when I took off? Would I have enough time to climb if I did that?

I feel like an idiot dying as often as I do on the most survivable level in the game. I expect to die on barrels when I group a little too long and a fireball runs up on the right super fast. I expect to get screwed on pie factories once in a while. And I expect to get screwed on rivets. But not springs!

Ideally, the final climb and first bounce of the trailing spring happen at pretty much the exact same time. This means you've positioned yourself as close to ladder as possible based on the first spring, and made your move as soon as the first spring has passed you. At that point you would assess the trailing spring and whether to continue the climb or retreat.

The colored charts in the OP indicate how much breathing room you have to get from the most ideal safe position on the girder (based on the first spring) to a safe height on the final ladder (based on the trailing spring). In the best case scenario of a [15,5], [14,5], or [13,5] combo you have 33 frames, or about 0.55 seconds. That's 0.55 seconds to position yourself correctly, assess whether the trailing spring is safe, and then decide to climb the ladder. Not a lot of time, and the time only goes down from there. So, waiting too long to climb the ladder will make otherwise safe combos more dangerous.

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Offline YesAffinity

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Re: Spring Theory
« Reply #23 on: July 11, 2016, 09:05:42 AM »
I'm guessing that I do springs incorrectly. By the time I know I have to retreat I'm already moving up the ladder and can only make it back to safety if it's the absolute "worst" spring for the one I left on.

So... after "take off" do you guys have the entry spot (not first bounce) memorized to allow for retreat, or should I not be starting up the ladder until the follower lands at a safe spot for when I took off? Would I have enough time to climb if I did that?

I feel like an idiot dying as often as I do on the most survivable level in the game. I expect to die on barrels when I group a little too long and a fireball runs up on the right super fast. I expect to get screwed on pie factories once in a while. And I expect to get screwed on rivets. But not springs!

I'm usually starting up the ladder when assessing the whether the next spring after running will require me to retreat or if I can keep going.  That is, if I make it to the ladder.  Sometimes, my cornering is chit and I'm pressing up but not actually going up, because I short-changed myself on the run, in which case I have to run back whether it was a good opportunity or not.  FailFish

The point is, it is possible to get a smidge up the ladder and retreat back down and back to the safe spot to the left of the ladder, if needed.
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Offline dnickolas

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Re: Spring Theory
« Reply #24 on: July 11, 2016, 10:33:27 AM »
I'm guessing that I do springs incorrectly. By the time I know I have to retreat I'm already moving up the ladder and can only make it back to safety if it's the absolute "worst" spring for the one I left on.

So... after "take off" do you guys have the entry spot (not first bounce) memorized to allow for retreat, or should I not be starting up the ladder until the follower lands at a safe spot for when I took off? Would I have enough time to climb if I did that?

I feel like an idiot dying as often as I do on the most survivable level in the game. I expect to die on barrels when I group a little too long and a fireball runs up on the right super fast. I expect to get screwed on pie factories once in a while. And I expect to get screwed on rivets. But not springs!

I'm usually starting up the ladder when assessing the whether the next spring after running will require me to retreat or if I can keep going.  That is, if I make it to the ladder.  Sometimes, my cornering is chit and I'm pressing up but not actually going up, because I short-changed myself on the run, in which case I have to run back whether it was a good opportunity or not.  FailFish

The point is, it is possible to get a smidge up the ladder and retreat back down and back to the safe spot to the left of the ladder, if needed.

I think a fun thread would be "things you do well and things you suck at." I'm usually solid with getting ON ladders, but getting off them is where I typically get stuck. So when I'm like 1/4 of the way up the ladder and need to retreat I'll get stuck at the bottom holding left.

While we're on springs, is it pretty much settled that getting the purse only nets a few hundred points? Seems like a lot of stress to add less than 6k to a run, unless it also helps mitigate points lost waiting for a good couple springs and gets you to average more than 600 overall.

Offline up2ng

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Re: Spring Theory
« Reply #25 on: July 13, 2016, 08:49:49 AM »
I'm guessing that I do springs incorrectly. By the time I know I have to retreat I'm already moving up the ladder and can only make it back to safety if it's the absolute "worst" spring for the one I left on.

So... after "take off" do you guys have the entry spot (not first bounce) memorized to allow for retreat, or should I not be starting up the ladder until the follower lands at a safe spot for when I took off? Would I have enough time to climb if I did that?

I feel like an idiot dying as often as I do on the most survivable level in the game. I expect to die on barrels when I group a little too long and a fireball runs up on the right super fast. I expect to get screwed on pie factories once in a while. And I expect to get screwed on rivets. But not springs!

These are excellent questions.  You are not necessarily doing anything "incorrectly", it's just a difficult portion of the game to get through until you've had a lot of experience and practice.

It is generally possible to retreat once you are already on the ladder, but the timing is pretty tight and if you are slightly wrong about judging the spring (should have kept going up instead of retreating) then you could get hit during this process.

The most precise way to judge the spring locations is based on where they bounce upon the yellow segment of the girder.  However, if you do it that way it will require excellent reflexes to be able to make your decision and react quickly enough to avoid being hit by the spring (but it's certainly possible and is how most of us start out doing it).  That's because you are not necessarily using all of the information available.

To answer your next question, yes, I take advantage of the information gained from the entry arc in addition to the bounce location and I believe most of the best players also do this as well.  Basically, if I am approaching the ladder, I will notice (mostly with peripheral vision) if the trailing spring is "generally bad" (maybe spring numbers 12 - 15 or so) because these tend to have a noticeably high entry arc.  By using this information, I am generally able to determine that I do not want to complete the ascent before I ever step onto the ladder (although occasionally I still have to retreat from the ladder).  Once I know this, I will watch to see where exactly the spring bounces along the yellow section in order to more precisely determine which spring it is, which helps with the next portion of my method.

Lastly, I use a "positional based" instead of a "timing based" approach.  This basically means that I take advantage of the fact that the "safe spot" is basically a sliding window of safe locations on which to stand depending upon which spring is bouncing overhead.  So, if the trailing spring is determined to be a number 15 spring (narrowing it down first based on arc angle and then by using the subsequent bounce location), I know that I won't be climbing the ladder.  But, I don't have to retreat all the way to the yellow block either.  I only need to retreat a very short distance -- stopping and standing pretty much tangent to the ladder -- because I know that the path of a 15 spring will miss me there.  The safe spot window has temporarily stretched to the right.  (See the diagrams above).  Once I've determined where I can safely stand a new spring will be entering and I am now evaluating this new spring's entry arc.  If this entry arc feels safe (0 - 11 or so), I will use the previous 15 spring to start my approach from my new modified safe spot and finish the screen.

I find that using this positional based approach has several advantages.  I find that I can create a more accurate approach than I can by trying to "time" my approach from farther away while the spring is various distances away from you.  When you are essentially standing one pixel to the left of where the spring could hit you -- you simply wait until the instant it passes over your head to start your approach and you will get a nearly perfect "jump" every time.  Also, you can approach from the very same spring that you were just retreating from which often results in a favorable combo of springs without losing very much Bonus.  But lastly, I find that the timing of the decision process described above tends to separate out the required actions a bit so that you are not trying to do two things at exactly the same time (trying to corner onto the ladder and judging the trailing spring's bounce location tends to happen at the same time and it's hard to look in two places at once).

There is no easy substitute for experience and practice, but there are two obvious suggestions to make to accelerate the process.  First, thoroughly read and absorb the information in this tread.  Next, set up a MAME savestate and practice the screen in a low pressure environment.  If you did nothing but practice this savestate for an hour every day within a week or two you would see big improvements.

Good luck!
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Offline dnickolas

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Re: Spring Theory
« Reply #26 on: July 22, 2016, 02:21:53 PM »
Thank you Dean,

I practiced for a bit trying to read entry points (not doing partial retreats, but a step in the right direction) and then ran boards for longer than a reasonable person would. In the end my deaths were:

pie > rivet > spring > barrel. I'd just start on 5 from a save state and go until I was dead. Counts were 51 > 26 > 10 > 1, so I guess I played 22 games of that. One spring death was unrelated to the spring - I just hit my head on the elevator, so yay. I'll get there. Before spring was on par with pie as far as being a "me killer."

In the mean time, I'll look for the "pie kicker" support group, and "don't turn around with a hammer when conveyor switches direction and slams you into a fireball" anonymous.

Offline dnickolas

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Re: Spring Theory
« Reply #27 on: August 08, 2017, 12:11:20 AM »
Ok, so I think I got springs down fairly well now. Key to me was caring a lot more about the trailing spring than the leading spring. I'll inch over on any mediocre spring and then hang around until a good one comes, only fully retreating in rare cases.

Improving that has me not dying, and the other improvements I made are in grabbing the purse and going top shelf almost all of the time. Instead of averaging 6100 and dying all the time, it's more like 7800 and living virtually all of the time.

I even sucked out an 8600 once with a quick grab, cooperative middle fireball, freezer on the right, entry and exit leeches, and a near-immediate final climb. I feel like if someone could figure out how to leech springs while waiting at the end there'd be even more points in this board, since there's sometimes a lot of dead time there waiting for a good 1-2.

There's so much to this game. I feel like it's almost time to compile this wisdom into a book or something.

Offline xelnia

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Re: Spring Theory
« Reply #28 on: August 29, 2017, 09:10:20 PM »
Big thanks to Boognish for pointing out that Photosucket image hosting went to shit. All images in the OP have been reuploaded to Imgur. Maybe I'll have to do it again in another 4 years. >.<
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