Poll

Should we allow score submissions from Johns pace rom?

Yes
No

Author Topic: Accept submissions from Johns pace rom?  (Read 6268 times)

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Offline marinomitch13

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Re: Accept submissions from Johns pace rom?
« Reply #30 on: July 04, 2016, 10:07:57 PM »
I voted "no" mainly because I'd like to have the parts of the code that were changed examined by a 2nd (and, perhaps, a 3rd) party first and confirmed to have no meaningful effect on the gameplay (I note meaningfulness because I'd assume that D2K boards technically require electrons to travel a few more mm, but create no meaningful change in the game, imho). As Ken noted, it's also important that the time in-between boards is the same as well.
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Offline DonkeyKongGenius

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Re: Accept submissions from Johns pace rom?
« Reply #31 on: October 01, 2016, 08:53:13 PM »
Many intriguing questions. Many good points. It seems in this discussion that whether any modified rom should be allowed is the major issue. To date it has not been allowed. Do we say no simply on principle that anything modified, whether cosmetic or not, is not "US Set 1" as it was originally released and therefore should not be used? There is a strong argument for this position. When I wrote "the ROMs must be US Set 1" it was written indicating the original code with no alterations in game play. That way the list was intended to only track a single code that is identical in all respects from the first line to the very last. That is its original intent. While we did not have such a rom with minor cosmetic changes such as this at that time means that it is not explicitly excluded, but yet its rejection is implied in the intent of the rule.

It was certainly intended to exclude US Set 2 which is different in the game code itself and hence its exclusion because the game play is altered. So far the annotations included on the HSL only denote hardware and source of video or inp files. The HSL has not included any altered rom files. While there is certainly a difference between US Set 1 and US Set 2, from US Set 1 to modified US Set 1, since one changes the game code and the other is a cosmetic difference, should we ever allow any modified rom at all? Obviously Pauline is yet another case but here the graphical interface between player and game is not absolutely the same as Jumpman and is part of the game play although the functionality of the game is unaltered.

I think that the scale can be tipped in favor of its acceptance with annotation on HSL that said modified rom was used if we could have absolute certainty that game play is not influenced at all. While the way the game normally functions may not be changed, does the modified rom influence RNG, the timing between boards, etc, so that the outcome is different than it otherwise would have been, although within the limits and terms of the processing code. Willms once noticed that if you finished the barrel board timed with the flashing 1Up that it would eliminate the delay in the 5th fireball. At least this is how I remembered it, and assuming that this idea is still valid, would this still work on the modified rom? Is the cutscreen still the same set of frames and no lag or extra stress placed upon the Z80 would have influence outcome in anyway?

There are very few people who understand Assembly and can verify with absolute certainty that there never will be found some anomalous, unintended result. No one knew that NES Jaws begins to function differently at 10 million points until one actually achieved that score. While I don't think there is anyone who questions the competency and integrity of the one who modified the rom, unless the community agrees very strongly (perhaps unanimously?) with one perspective or another it should not be allowed for the time being but the discussion should continue.

While the HSL has functioned with normative and auxiliary rules, it has become clear that in certain ways the sense of the normative rules, or at least some of them, has taken on a more absolute character in how they are generally applied such as the 3+1 setting. (Thanks for Jeremy for this insight) And perhaps the same can be said of a strict interpretation of "the ROMs must be US Set 1" to mean nothing short of a single code that is identical in all respects from the first line to the very last.
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Offline Sock Master

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Re: Accept submissions from Johns pace rom?
« Reply #32 on: October 01, 2016, 10:20:36 PM »
If someone were to complete a barrel board on a certain frame of the flashing 1UP, the fireball spawn timing on the following rivets board would be the same between both normal DK and Pace ROM sets.

In-game timing will be the same.   The Z80 does take a little bit of processing time to draw the pace chart onto the "how high" screen, but the code also shortens the delay timer for how long that screen stays up so the timing from screen to screen stays the same.

The RNG does not change in character, it generates exactly as random as before - but random on DK is a little special.. it's impossible to prove that there is zero effect on the random generator.    If you took the DK ROMs, and replaced one "JP (address)" (that actually gets executed) with a "JR (address)" and even though both opcodes perform the same operation (jump to an address) the difference would cause an .INP file saved from one to desync when played on the other in MAME...  even though there would be no actual logic difference between both of those ROMs.

Similarly, the minor differences in clock crystals and other components from DK PCB to DK PCB also means no two DK PCB sets could ever spew out exactly the same sequence of random numbers, from fresh power up or not.

Anyway, what I'm saying is that random is still totally random but this is something that can't be demonstrably proven.   The only way to get a consensus would be for enough people to play and see that they have the same proportion of good and/or bad randomness as they normally do.
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Offline WCopeland

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Re: Accept submissions from Johns pace rom?
« Reply #33 on: October 02, 2016, 08:46:24 AM »
I'd probably be more inclined to accept submissions from the Pace ROM if it were open source.
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