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91
Mame is an Emulator that is designed to Mimic the processors on the Arcade board. It will follow the commands and rules set in the instruction codes programmed in the Rom. If The Rom states to draw letters first, Floor Second, and Characters last; The Mame is follow those commands just like the Arcade is designed to follow the commands of the program ROM.
The issue at hand is that due to an emulation "defect" in MAME, it does not draw quite the same as Arcade.  We can see those same drawing differences in Billy's tapes. 

He never expected to be questioned over 15+ years later about some recording method he did in the days of VCR and VHS tapes. But we want to get the answers that everyone are now asking out as quick as possible.

The Boomers 1,062,800 score was from July 31st, 2010.  That's less than 8 years ago.
92
lots and lots of words

It's funny how the narrative trying to explain away how Billy's games look like MAME keeps changing every time the previous one gets debunked.

Billy cheated.  Billy's defense is cheating too as the current narrative contains my own words in plagiarized form explaining how that board works.  Changing stories and using whatever bits of text they can find online to splice together new stories shows their fundamental lack of understanding about how the hardware actually works.

Their current explanation is that by connecting this device it will somehow magically cause a DK PCB to change the way that it renders frames in such a way that it looks like MAME?

I'll save everyone some time:

No.

I'll be eagerly awaiting the next new story.  I hope it's more inventive than the last one.
93
looks like emu + ridiculous rng + no reliable witnesses = cheating

^ looks like it.

Why so little focus on the rng by the believers?

I know Jojo and bh and possibly others have been noting down the numbers.

Does the ridiculous rng look consistent across all three 3 of the games under discussion?

And, are there any bold, clear statistics that should be obvious red flags to anybody who's not an expert at the game? The fact that only 4 of the first 50 blue smashes (in the game under review at TG) registered as 300s certainly should raise an eyebrow for anyone who's only played DK half a dozen times.

Are there any other startling and easy to digest stats like that knocking about? Or are we just going to be bogged down in rastafarianization and screen artichokes (I think those are the technical terms) and such for ever?
The trouble with looking to the rng for proof is that it is literally random. As unlikely and improbable as the outcomes are, they aren't impossible and so it can't be used as proof of cheating on it's own. When combined with everything else though, things start to look more and more suspicious. But for absolute proof we need something which is irrefutable.
94
Rastafarianization and screen artichokes are the only things those snakes can't fool us with. This whole magic of "ArrInnGee" is something I don't believe in...

95
looks like emu + ridiculous rng + no reliable witnesses = cheating

^ looks like it.

Why so little focus on the rng by the believers?

I know Jojo and bh and possibly others have been noting down the numbers.

Does the ridiculous rng look consistent across all three 3 of the games under discussion?

And, are there any bold, clear statistics that should be obvious red flags to anybody who's not an expert at the game? The fact that only 4 of the first 50 blue smashes (in the game under review at TG) registered as 300s certainly should raise an eyebrow for anyone who's only played DK half a dozen times.

Are there any other startling and easy to digest stats like that knocking about? Or are we just going to be bogged down in rastafarianization and screen artichokes (I think those are the technical terms) and such for ever? 
96
todd   ok i admit i was wrong but what about the 8 way joystick he was playing with on his double donkey kong board on that video.  You did not give the whole story from the evidence. Weibe did cheat not the same fraud as bill surely you have to agree to that.  dwayne
Fine, but the point is about how easy it is to convince yourself you "know" something that you really don't.  (I'm using "you" in general here, not meaning you specifically.)

Since you're here, can you clarify what is in this video?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYtJzRcvOzk  The description claims you provided the original material.  Assuming that's true, how did you get the recording off the tape and onto whatever the destination media was?  To me, it looks like a recording of a playback to a CRT screen, which was captured by a camera and then transferred somehow from there.  Is that right?

This video : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0ZKEGZpggI is clearly a recording of a playback, as you yourself appear at the start of it showing the tape about to be played.  Do you recall what kind of monitor that was/is?

Thanks,


Todd
97
Maximumsteve, thanks for relaying this information. I'm very much looking forward to seeing the outcome of the direct feed recreation from you guys. My question at the moment is this, what is being done to assure the Donkey Kong community that the recreation is an honest one? There is a shadow over this entire situation, so are there going to be representatives from both sides to witness that everything is above board? For example, what is to stop team Billy releasing a MAME tape and claiming that this was the video captured from the recreated direct feed on an original cabinet? And will the video be released if it doesn't support the original tapes being genuine?

98
"Direct capture recording via a converter board from a DK machine is certainly possible and has never been disputed.  Xelnia accounted for what direct capture recordings look like in his very first post on this thread.  They don't look like what is on Billy's videos.  The only thing that looks like what is on Billy's videos is MAME. 

The board you show in the screenshots below does not:
-have a framebuffer nor can it change the order of frames.
-have digital processing to recompose the contents of frames
-have the ability to rotate the image as seen in the two older videotapes
-have the ability to rescale the screen to create large borders like the last videotape
-but it does have audio

Billy's videos draw partial frames the way MAME does.  Direct capture video still draws partial frames the way Arcade does, not the way MAME does. So this board was not used to make those videos.  Use of this converter board will not result in partially drawn frames looking like they do in the available gameplay videos of Billy's play from his 1,047,200 (the King of Kong "tape"), 1,050,200 (the Mortgage Brokers score), and 1,062,800 (the Boomers score) scores.  So it was not used in recording those videos.

In addition audio is clearly visible in the screenshots of the board.  Please explain why it was not used and why prior claims were made that audio could not be recorded with direct feed.  As previously explained, MAME audio available at the time was easily distinguishable from arcade audio, so someone using MAME would intentionally avoid including audio."

 

I will attempt to answer your concerns the best I can 1 by 1. Compared to the other videos that were being submitted in those days, I can truly understand based on the quality why it would look Mame like quality. Most all video entries which were done via Classical Arcade systems were done with a camcorder propped up aimed at the CRT. This was due to the difficulty to record an Arcade output any other way. A special Convertor board was used to generate the combined NTSC video signal that a recording device could and would understand the signal. But keep in mind that MAME is an Emulator that will emulate the instructions requested by the ROM of the Game. So the Redrawing Patterns would not be changing in every stage differently. The ROM is the ROM. Does the Score, memory usage and such matter? Maybe or maybe not. It what the ROM demands. But we will get to that soon.
  The Convertor board in the picture does NOT have a framebuffer, That is correct. Since we are dealing with 100% analog outputs and Analog screens, Framebuffers is NOT required. The converter simply combines the multi game board cables (Red,Blue,Green, Grounds, Sync) in the commonly used 1 composite(Yellow RCA Video) NTSC (USA, Japan tv standard) Signal for ease off recording onto a VCR or a capture board of the days.

  This too means NO digital Processing. I have read many MANY peoples post stating that they are not focused on the quality but on how the Game in the Video generates the stage. It is believed the stage is reproduced in a different manner when using different devices. Though the comparison are not Apples to Apples (Different stages, different recording devices, different stages, and even different scores) that we donít know how the used memories effect the sub routings off the program in the ROM. But this is the biggest argued point. So this is the point I will be focused on to help proof soon. So your questions and Concerns ARE truly appreciated because it helps me know better what many are focused on that needs examining. No digital Processor which is correct. It would NOT cause the redrawing the order off the parts of the frame to change. So I will examine how the unit actually does it in details.

  Thought it was only a few videos, EVERY video which was recorded using the converter is recorded vertically. The simple analog board does NOT have the ability to rotate the signal with the unit used. The game board produced the video game in that manner. EVERY video showing the tapes that were made using that convertor has the TVs turned on its side 90 degrees. From the submission tapes, the high score tape played in King of Kong had the play back TVs turned 90 degrees. Most others was a simple Camcorder aimed to the screen or played with game watcher / refs.

   Now to the Audio. Though the Convertor that was purchased ALSO had circuitry for audio level adjustments and output, The wiring is not as simple as just plugging it in the game board. The game board itself has a whole section just dedicated in producing the sounds INCLUDING a little amplifier circuit to amplify the cabinet speaker. We would have to tap into the motherboard circuit JUST before the audio signal goes into the amplifier stage. Some modification to the motherboard to add low-level audio output jack is really a pain in the rear. Now the video out of the game board goes right into the input port of the monitors signal board. BUT these monitors (Sanyo raster) had two input jacks. You simply connect a ribbon cable on the second connector which was bridged to the first video input by default. So no splicing or dicing off the game board was required to use this converter. The game would run its original monitor and now also had a composite video out from the converter. Because these tapes were made to submit to show play and that score was achieved, the focus on the audio was not a huge factor. The use of the Converter was never intended to be permanent install to the cabinet. Was only for the purpose of recording these games plays at a much better looking quality then what you got from the usual camcorder aimed at a screen for hours. Modification to the actual gaming board was not needed since we werenít going to pull the low-level outputs out the board. The game boardís audio cable is an amplified out that runs straight to the cabinets speaker. So the Clear submission tapes that were recorded in this manner donít have audio per this reason.

   The Videos that look like they were produced using mame is understandable because just about every Mame PC of the time had an easy way to output the video put for clear recording. So seeing these Billy tapes looking way better than an average camcorder can raise eyebrows. Since Direct recording from an Arcade machine was just not a normally easy thing to do. But with Mame it can be. I donít mean to make these replies so long BUT I want to be as clear as I can without toooo much tech gumbo talk. These concerns you have brought up WILL be the focus on showing how they did these recording and with best effort show plus answer these hot topic questions to all in our gaming realm.


"Steve i think the issue here is that due to these pplnot having accounts anywhere thenthe info being relayed isnt really relevant to the issue!
What really needs to happen is that direct questions get answered!

firstly....the 2bits board has sound! why did mr childs say it didnt?
secondly... what is the PC for in mr childs dkjr board swap videos?
thirdly... why can we not see any wires that would link the 2 bits device in these videos?
fourth... only mame draws to the screen how its been shown, no video codec or anything would change this. So please explain, or recreate the scenario if we are to be proven wrong! (in your defence if you chose this option i would record every instance it takes to mirror it with a seperate videocam, to save yourselves from future issues!)

the answers we are getting relayed atm are very detailed, but dont really have anything to do with the actual issue! They are also heaily flawed in the fact mr childs spent 3 paragraphs talking about a chip that ISNT on the two bits device! At some point someone has to open up, because its no longer just billys integrity that is at stake here! theres others being dragged into it! If we are to be proven wrong then it needs to be shown....theres no need for a new movie explanation, theres no need for a live publicity stunt.

actually i have 1 last question for mr childs......why offer $5000 then follow it up with a condition that requires a lawyer? you may aswel of said " im certain but i might be wrong"!  if your 100% certain then youd offer the money regardless!

thats all i have for now!id like to point out that im still neither for or against, i just want the truth! "....

 

Thank you for your concerning questions and I will try to answer them the best I can. I will do my best to answer your questions best I can for you. You first question is out the sound outputs on the converter board. Why do you see sound outputs when Mr.Childs say it didnít. Well you both are right. The converter board DOES have an audio output level tuning circuit on the converter BUT that portion of the converter was not used. I had another ask the same question and the answer was a bit long, So Iím going to cut&paste the answer I provider here.. ď Now to the Audio. Though the Convertor that was purchased ALSO had circuitry for audio level adjustments and output, The wiring is not as simple as just plugging it in the game board. The game board itself has a whole section just dedicated in producing the sounds INCLUDING a little amplifier circuit to amplify the cabinet speaker. We would have to tap into the motherboard circuit JUST before the audio signal goes into the amplifier stage. Some modification to the motherboard to add low-level audio output jack is really a pain in the rear. Now the video out of the game board goes right into the input port of the monitors signal board. BUT these monitors (Sanyo raster) had two input jacks. You simply connect a ribbon cable on the second connector which was bridged to the first video input by default. So no splicing or dicing off the game board was required to use this converter. The game would run its original monitor and now also had a composite video out from the converter. Because these tapes were made to submit to show play and that score was achieved, the focus on the audio was not a huge factor. The use of the Converter was never intended to be permanent install to the cabinet. Was only for the purpose of recording these games plays at a much better looking quality then what you got from the usual camcorder aimed at a screen for hours. Modification to the actual gaming board was not needed since we werenít going to pull the low-level outputs out the board. The game boardís audio cable is an amplified out that runs straight to the cabinets speaker. So the Clear submission tapes that were recorded in this manner donít have audio per this reason.Ē

    What is the PC in the Swap video. I went back to see that video because I donít know what PC you were talking about. I do see a PC monitor setup to what I assume is a small station setup. But the PC was not inside the cabinet. I will assume that it was part of the recording rig. I donít see any evidence in the setup visible in the cabinet that a PC is wired for gaming. The speaker,, video, power supply, coin door and button cables were all connected into the gaming board. But in Full disclosure, I was not at event or location. And the location was knocked down years ago.

   The wire to the converter. Where is it? I am 98% percent that I saw it in the video for a few seconds. But this is because I recognize what this ribbon cable actually looks like. But you are right in the assessment that the camera recording that event do not focus on it. I will guess it was not on purpose, just someone aiming inside and outside off the cabinet.

   Only Mame will draw the images the way it is seen on the recording. This seems to be the underlining of the accusation. For some reason it is believed that the images in the order it was draw can ONLY be produced via MAME, no questions. Thought this comparison isnít Apples to Apples. Mame is an Emulator that is designed to Mimic the processors on the Arcade board. It will follow the commands and rules set in the instruction codes programmed in the Rom. If The Rom states to draw letters first, Floor Second, and Characters last; The Mame is follow those commands just like the Arcade is designed to follow the commands of the program ROM. But I can understand the concern as direct recording of an arcade play was just norm a norm when everyone else had to use a camcorder aimed to the screen. The difference in quality of the submission tapes CAN and has raised some flags. I am working with others (Handful of techs) to reproduce the setup AND at the same time answer the hottest questions on the subject. We all care about this Realm of Gaming and should want it to be honest. Many including you have brought up superb questions and I am taking it as feedback to come up with the best answers for everyone. But to be clear, the converter will cause quality and refresh changes to video but it would NOT change the order the items are draw on the screen. More answers coming very soon.

    Lastly the offer of the money. Mr.Childsí was the person who installed that converter and setup that recording method for Mitchell. He knows and is so sure of his setup that he placed his integrity on it. Being a business man and working in the world of the internet, offers like that must ALWAYS be drawn up for the protection of EVERYONE. As many can attempt to scam then demand payment because rules were not clear. But this offer was done early in the beginning of this issue when he and many others NEVER expected it to become as large as it has become in the last few days. Mr.Childs stands by the integrity of the work and that it was all done real and honestly.. He never expected to be questioned over 15+ years later about some recording method he did in the days of VCR and VHS tapes. But we want to get the answers that everyone are now asking out as quick as possible.

 

Carlos Pineiro

 
99
Hi,

I tried to post this over on twingalaxies, but my ancient account can't post there for some reason.

Anyway, I wanted to say that I'm unconvinced that this frame-by-frame analysis is good evidence.  Note that I'm not saying I think you guys are wrong overall.  I don't have a position on that, but agree there's a bunch of other fishy stuff (board swap, anyone?).  I just think this video analysis is weak.

Why do I think it's weak?  I guess the summary would be that this frame-by-frame analysis of transitions is too new for people to be making such definitive statements about it.  My opinion, obviously.  But when I first read the initial post with the gifs, etc., I thought, "Wow, that's pretty clear."  But the underlying assumption there is that there's are always clear differences that we should see.  Some version of MAME always does transitions like X.  Arcade always does transitions like Y.

If you go look through some video, though, it's totally not the case. Some transitions in Billy's recordings exactly match some transitions in known Arcade recordings.  Reality is that even in a single recording, there are a number of different transitions seen.  Triforce posted a video earlier pointing out the same thing, so I won't go into it more.

Then there's Jace Hall on TG basically saying how he's an expert in all things video, and after a bunch of analysis, they're pretty sure that the oil can should never appear without DK in the frame as well.  In an amazing bit of timing, he then posts
Quote
...we believe we have now successfully identified and have nearly definitively confirmed...
and
Quote
Any type of signal conversion from RGB to NTSC (or otherwise) from an unmodified Original Donkey Kong PCB can not produce an image of the Oil Barrel without the Donkey Kong character present, since that image does not ever exist in the original signal.
Note the "or otherwise" there.  This is posted roughly 20 minutes _after_ Scoundrl has shown counter-evidence.  But that's okay!  20 minutes after that, he explains it away as CRT effects.  Fine, I can believe that.  But then, he continues:
Quote
It is important to understand that this can not happen in a direct-feed scenario. An RGB to NTSC conversion going straight to VHS tape never has this moment in the signal. There are no CRT phosphors to hold a partial image for 1/60th of a second and the framerate / field recording is exactly the incoming signal with no image recomposition being performed. The above appears to be a visual artifact and image that got created by the external camera being out of sync with an actual video display.
Ummm, what exactly are we looking at in the video of Billy's 1.047M game?  Yeah, a camera recording an image from a CRT monitor.  At least, that's what it looks like to me.  What about the footage from the Big Bang event?  Very obviously CRTs.  (The 1.050M game does look more like an LCD to me, but I have no idea whether that should introduce similar artifacts or not.)


What seems (to me) to be happening is that people have already decided that Billy's tapes are bogus.  And now they're "proving" what they've already decided, so fail to be properly skeptical of their methods.

You know what this really reminds me of?  The completely bogus analysis of Steve Weibe's tape from KoK.  Here it is, take a listen, even if you've already heard it before:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdTjaF1eEqo

Listen to how confident Brian and Dwayne are about the "altered board aspects" and how wild barrels on level 5 should act differently. They're completely sure something is wrong and wild barrels should be 'faster'.  But a decade later, after disassembly and code analysis, along with tons of play by lots of people, we know the truth.  They are dead wrong.  That is exactly how wild barrels on level 5 are supposed to work.  Again: They are convinced they're right, but are completely wrong.

Are you guys doing the same thing now with this board transition analysis and rendering aspects?  I don't claim to know, but it smells kinda similar to me.  Everyone seems to be very sure that Billy's tapes shouldn't look the way they do.

As I said above, I'm not saying you're wrong overall, or even specifically about this frame-by-frame video stuff.  I just think there are very serious flaws in the argument.


Todd

I'm trying to piece your post together here and understand it. 

1) Scoundrl posted his screenshot at 2/14/2018 at 9:40 PM.

2) Jace posts 25 minutes later to provide an update to his DK/Blue Barrel post.  This post does not address Scoundrl's image because that image has not been posted yet. It appears to me to actually be, in part at least,  a reply to YesAffinity who had responded to Jace's original post about the DK/Blue Barrel info at 5:57 AM that morning. 

3) The original post about the DK/Blue Barrel information came 2/13/2018 at 5:48 PM over 24 hours before Scoundrl's image was posted and in fact Scoundrl had not posted at all between this post and his image post.

4) Jace actually addresses Scoundrl's image at 2/15/2018 at 12:19 AM fully 2 hours and 39 minutes later (as opposed to the 20 minutes you stated).  Given that Jace has presumably been marinating in this information for days now I am not surprised he was able to respond within 3 hours and in fact 20 minutes seems very reasonable to me as well.

I also believe there may be some substantive issues with your comment in addition to what I believe are the timing errors, for instance you are mixing up Jace's posts and seem to be implying he said things in a single post that were spread out over several giving a false impression of reactionary replies.  Additionally, I'm not sure you understood the replies, possibly because you seem unclear about who he was actually responding to at various points.

I won't delve further into your comment for the time being because of these timing issues, but if you can clean up or clarify your concerns in light of this information perhaps a more substantive discussion could be had.  Alternatively, let me know if I made a mistake in my understanding of what you were saying.

Sorry to fact check you but we live in a trust but verify age these days.

Cheers

edit: Added a strike to a part I left in by mistake after re-arranging my thoughts before the original publish of my comment.
100
qnz, it's not some guys sitting in a room talking about their gut feelings. its image analysis and like numbers and stuff.

you take away the celebrity, look at what you got

looks like emu + ridiculous rng + no reliable witnesses = cheating

that's what any community would decide.
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