Author Topic: All About DK ROM sets and PCBs  (Read 30537 times)

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Offline f_symbols

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Re: All About DK ROM sets and PCBs
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2014, 09:55:24 AM »
Thanks for the info ! I learned alot .

I was thinking of getting my DK JR PCB , Double Donkey Konged , I guess people don't trust them as authentic game play .


I believe the HSL accepts scores from both the D2K kits and the Double DK boards, I may be wrong.  If I remember correctly those "other rules" were just for TG.  Although it is not directly mentioned in the "submission rules" thread http://donkeykongforum.com/index.php?topic=365.0, I believe these are the "rules"; perhaps this is a good time to clarify some of these things.  Another example of an unstated rule is the "single credit rule",  I am nearly certain that the DKF HSL does not care about how many credits are on the cab either...
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Offline hchien

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Re: All About DK ROM sets and PCBs
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2014, 11:16:52 AM »
So I think the ArcadeSD is the top alternative to a real DK PCB , even over a PC running MAME , because all PC's behave differently , but all ArcadeSD's behave the same .


While this is true, it doesn't necessarily make the ArcadeSD is more precise than MAME (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accuracy_and_precision).  I've never played on one before so I can't say for sure, but I've played on some 60-in-1's that have a very slight (but noticeable) lag.

For record submitting purposes (outside of the HSL here), I'd suggest getting the original PCB.  If just for fun, then yeah anything will do.

Ethan's post made me realize that the rules here contradict themselves:

"All Arcade submissions are to be done on an original TKG-4 DK machine."

then

"Scores that were achieved on a 3 in 1 machine or multi-pcb will be acceptable if..."

I'm pretty sure some of the arcade scores on the list are on multicades, so maybe edit the first rule?
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Offline stella_blue

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Re: All About DK ROM sets and PCBs
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2014, 11:55:40 AM »
I'm pretty sure some of the arcade scores on the list are on multicades, so maybe edit the first rule?

I may be mistaken, but I believe Jeremy was/is working on a rewrite of the list submission rules.

I can assure you, however, that I am not an active participant in that project.   :)

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Offline Hamster

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Re: All About DK ROM sets and PCBs
« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2014, 12:33:23 PM »
So I think the ArcadeSD is the top alternative to a real DK PCB , even over a PC running MAME , because all PC's behave differently , but all ArcadeSD's behave the same .


While this is true, it doesn't necessarily make the ArcadeSD is more precise than MAME (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accuracy_and_precision).  I've never played on one before so I can't say for sure, but I've played on some 60-in-1's that have a very slight (but noticeable) lag.

For record submitting purposes (outside of the HSL here), I'd suggest getting the original PCB.  If just for fun, then yeah anything will do.

Ethan's post made me realize that the rules here contradict themselves:

"All Arcade submissions are to be done on an original TKG-4 DK machine."

then

"Scores that were achieved on a 3 in 1 machine or multi-pcb will be acceptable if..."

I'm pretty sure some of the arcade scores on the list are on multicades, so maybe edit the first rule?


Yeah I'm not saying MAME isn't precise , the program itself is , I'm saying the "different computers" we all use to run it are not all precise/the same  . Some computers might struggle a little , max out CPU , other programs might be running in the back ground like Anti virus ........theres many different setups , hardware and software .

I just discovered this because I realized different versions of MAME run differently on my computer . 0.90 runs slower because it very often maxes out my CPU , so it feels easier . 

Where as all ArcadeSD boards are exactly the same just like original DK pcb's , so they all react and feel the exact same .

 So its not MAME's fault .

Its like every PC game . They can run slightly different because of the endless different hardware and software setups .
« Last Edit: January 25, 2014, 12:36:42 PM by Hamster »

Online gstrain

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Re: All About DK ROM sets and PCBs
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2014, 02:14:12 PM »

Yeah I'm not saying MAME isn't precise , the program itself is , I'm saying the "different computers" we all use to run it are not all precise/the same  . Some computers might struggle a little , max out CPU , other programs might be running in the back ground like Anti virus ........theres many different setups , hardware and software .

I just discovered this because I realized different versions of MAME run differently on my computer . 0.90 runs slower because it very often maxes out my CPU , so it feels easier . 

Where as all ArcadeSD boards are exactly the same just like original DK pcb's , so they all react and feel the exact same .

 So its not MAME's fault .

Its like every PC game . They can run slightly different because of the endless different hardware and software setups .
If MAME is running at 100%, then it should be the same regardless of setup.  MAME won't run "too fast" because it throttles on the frame speed.  MAME can run too slow, but you can see this in the recorded speed that is stored in the WolfMAME files.  Everybody should be able to easily get a 99.9% recorded speed in DK for on any PC, if not 99.99%  This is why there is a "minimum recorded speed" rule for all MAME recordings.

Offline xelnia

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Re: All About DK ROM sets and PCBs
« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2014, 02:44:53 PM »
I'm pretty sure some of the arcade scores on the list are on multicades, so maybe edit the first rule?

I may be mistaken, but I believe Jeremy was/is working on a rewrite of the list submission rules.

I can assure you, however, that I am not an active participant in that project.   :)

This is true. Right now I'm working on clarifying and condensing the rules list. It won't be changed until the community has a chance to review it.
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Offline ChrisP

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Re: All About DK ROM sets and PCBs
« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2014, 04:17:31 PM »
I have some issues with DDK.

One problem is that (unlike a D2K kit) the conversion entails permanent physical alterations to an otherwise working Junior board, which is not good on a preservation level. The alterations may be reversible, but probably not by anyone except Mike's Arcade, since they don't make the steps public. It's not technically destructive, but it is a disfigurement.

Sound: I can't speak for anyone else and their preferences, but I couldn't live with the sound changes. Jumpman's running and jumping sounds are iconic, they're part of the game. Junior sounds... that just isn't right on DK!

Price: At $160 for the conversion, the surgery costs almost as much as simply buying a DK board, maybe even more if you can find a deal.

Options: if you just want to easily switch games, there are other non-invasive ways to accomplish that, like the Nintendo PCB switcher that Vector Labs makes. You could even just go with a 60-in-1 if switching games easily is the main priority. Even in their raw original form, it only takes a few minutes to swap a DK and a Junior board.

Lastly, I can't find the link right now (I will look later), but it was determined at one point that (unlike the D2K kit), there actually IS at least one confirmed difference in the gameplay when DK is played on Junior hardware. Specifically it has to do with the timer ticking at different rates. You can live slightly longer at the "000" before dying, for one thing.

So I'd be cautious about DDK! It's one thing for a collector, or an arcade operator, to go that route, but for competition it might be a problem. It certainly was on at least one occasion...
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Offline hchien

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Re: All About DK ROM sets and PCBs
« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2014, 06:22:54 PM »
If "we" allow multicades, then certainly "we" should allow D2K kits and DDK.  To me:

original PCB >= D2K >= DDK > MAME > Triple DK > multicades >> altered ROM sets

I have no scientific basis for that statement, but just my general impression from playing them all.  We in quotes, because I don't want to be the one making these decisions!
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Offline ChrisP

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Re: All About DK ROM sets and PCBs
« Reply #23 on: January 25, 2014, 09:34:05 PM »
For the record, I would not oppose acceptance of DDK scores, even if there might be tiny differences. I'm okay with a "close enough" philosophy on this stuff, because if a problem isn't visible to the naked eye of experienced players, it really can't have THAT much of an effect on the player's ability to get the score they get. There are surely subtleties among these tens of thousands of machines, PCs, MAME versions, ROMsets, etc. that we don't even know about yet, and ways of hacking/cheating that we haven't imagined, so being really strict about everything in unnecessarily burdensome when there are larger issues that we can do nothing about.

In other words, we shouldn't necessarily keep eighteen locks on the barn door when the horse can just jump right out the window!

Any non-live performance on a machine without a known chain of custody is always going to be problematic. It's the price we pay for being able to compete long distance.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2014, 12:00:58 AM by ChrisP »
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Offline Hamster

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Re: All About DK ROM sets and PCBs
« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2014, 10:07:39 AM »


One problem is that (unlike a D2K kit) the conversion entails permanent physical alterations to an otherwise working Junior board, which is not good on a preservation level. The alterations may be reversible, but probably not by anyone except Mike's Arcade, since they don't make the steps public. It's not technically destructive, but it is a disfigurement.



I didn't know they did all that to a DK JR board . I thought it was just plugging in a daughter card into the Z80 socket and swapping out some roms .

I'm all about preservation too , I'm not getting it done now . I'll just pick up a DK board . They've just been so much harder to find these days .

Offline ChrisP

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Re: All About DK ROM sets and PCBs
« Reply #25 on: January 26, 2014, 02:34:24 PM »
Yeah, they mess with the board itself! That's why you actually have to send your board to them. If it were just a kit in the Z80 socket you'd buy the kit and install it yourself.
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Offline Hamster

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Re: All About DK ROM sets and PCBs
« Reply #26 on: March 01, 2014, 08:56:24 PM »
I have a question about different rom versions of DK ,

I just noticed the 60n1 Donkey Kong only says "1981" at the title screen . DK is VERY hard on the 60n1 . The flame guys are way more aggressive .

Offline Monstabonza

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Re: All About DK ROM sets and PCBs
« Reply #27 on: March 03, 2014, 07:32:39 PM »
I consistently have better averages on the 60-1 than on mame but that's me.
I believe all they did was edit out the copyright
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Offline Shnypz

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Re: All About DK ROM sets and PCBs
« Reply #28 on: April 21, 2014, 05:00:48 PM »
Great stuff in here. I scored a DK machine off CL about a month ago and wondered what run/how old it was. Just looked inside the coin door, saw the 2 board setup and knew (from this thread) it was a TKG-4. I stuck my phone in to take a pic off the chip just to be sure.

Side note - I need to clean that thing out. The inside is quite dusty.
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Offline Monstabonza

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Re: All About DK ROM sets and PCBs
« Reply #29 on: June 06, 2014, 04:51:23 PM »
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