Author Topic: List Submission Rules  (Read 30441 times)

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Offline tom bradley

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Re: List Submission Rules
« Reply #30 on: August 04, 2013, 10:17:02 AM »
How about this, because I don't understand most of what you are talking about, when I get the machine I'll try to post a video showing the insides of the machine. Then can you evaluated whether I can submit scores using it, I would really appreciate it if you could take a look and hopefully tell me that it is elligible.
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corey.chambers

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Re: List Submission Rules
« Reply #31 on: August 04, 2013, 10:37:05 AM »
Definately open up the back and show us the inside of the machine. Show any text on the pcb if it is JAMMA, etc. Show the start up, the title screen, the game play, etc. But like I said, if it is a JAMMA, I really don't have anything in the criteria that would ultimately reject it at this point. But this is a community list, so I need to allow time for people to chime into the discussion.

Offline Scoundrl

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Re: List Submission Rules
« Reply #32 on: August 04, 2013, 02:13:59 PM »

My opinions would vary if access to the REQUIRED version of wolfmame cost money, but anyone with a computer can get the right version of wolf and the correct us set 1 roms;  NO ONE is IN ANY WAY prevented or limited in their access to a potentially valid score. 

That last sentence sums everything up;  We have agreed upon a "cheat proof" version of mame, that is READILY available for anyone to download, FOR FREE.  If you feel the need to go above and beyond and buy a cab for your personal arcade, then by all means do so,  Just know that you need a TKG4 boardset for your submissions to be valid.  I totally understand the appeal of Xin1 emulators for space, price, etc.
-Fin

This is not accurate and is the reason for my post in the first place. This 'custom' cab may be using mame but it may not be wolfmame 1.06. If he wants to use his machine he has to go thru a lot of work just to make it DKF compliant, if that is in fact possible.

As for me just saying its silly, that is exactly what it is. If you think no one can cheat because xxx rule or xxx_y rule you havnt been in the computer industry long. Anything that can be done with software can be bypassed by software.

Wolf106 does NOT emulate Donkey Kong properly. The sound system is a hacked together system that may or may not have anything to do with gameplay but the simple fact is it is NOT emulated 100%. They have since added the proper sound emulation.

Noone has any clue what is being used in the xxx-1 boards. It seems to play properly but we do not know. Allowing those to be mixed in is fine by me but it certainly is some kind of emulation and certainly is NOT wolfmame 106.

Because someone might cheat or has ability to cheat does not make them a cheat. I could easily cheat. I could cheat on a machine, I could cheat on a 60-1 and I could cheat via wolfmame. The more rules you put in place the more people you limit from submitting scores to the HSL, and this new member will likely be an example of that.

-Ken

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corey.chambers

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Re: List Submission Rules
« Reply #33 on: August 04, 2013, 02:28:54 PM »
I think that the list does a good job and I have explained where the list exists on the spectrum of possible lists that we could have. We want the list to be relevant and to be credible and I think that the present criteria serves that end very well.

Tom and I have spoken several times. The first time he contacted me he wanted to submit to the list with just a photograph, and at that time I was very nice in explaining the criteria. Recently he contacted me before he purchased this cab he shows in the video and asks me about it. I told him that my initial reaction was "no" because I knew nothing about it, but then I started the conversation about whether it is a Jamma board. He will make a video of it all as I requested and I am sure that based on the present criteria that everything will be ok I am sure. I am not too worried about it. And in reality, support has already been offered for the multi-pcb and Wolfmame only, and it has already passed into usage.

corey.chambers

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Re: List Submission Rules
« Reply #34 on: August 04, 2013, 02:38:56 PM »
Additionally, the criteria does not limit mame submissions to Wolfmame 0.106, as it seems you suppose. All versions of wolfmame are allowed. If you thought this, or continue to think that the list is too strict, please re-read the criteria, especially the auxiliary rules.

Offline Scoundrl

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Re: List Submission Rules
« Reply #35 on: August 04, 2013, 03:44:58 PM »
I dont really have a pony in this show. If you want to have whatever rules thats OK with me. My only real issue is that the list has to much latitude to be seriously credible and as such is simply a community driven list and should be treated as such. Adding high end rules to verify credible scores while also mixing emulation and 60-1 knock off boards does not make sense. Its not apples to apples REALLY.

I think the list is accurate and representative of who the best players are, so I'm not arguing that its not a good list, just the mixing and matching then making the rules that are unnecessarily restrictive do not go hand in hand.

There is a reason no real scoreboard mixes scores (because they are fundamentally different).

There is also a reason the tournaments I run and/or am a part of mix scores from different platforms (because its for fun and who cares if there are subtle difference)

It seems at some point the DKF scoreboard will have to pick. Be Legit and have strict rules or be for fun and let people play and submit what they wish/what they have available.

-Ken
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corey.chambers

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Re: List Submission Rules
« Reply #36 on: August 04, 2013, 04:17:31 PM »
I respect you Ken, and I appreciate your thoughts.

Originally, I had multiple player scores. For example, I would have a Arcade score and a Mame score for the same person. It was asked for duplicate people's scores to be removed. If you will, you can see the list as an aggregate. The far right column tells what the platform is. So in a sense, the format is just that a formality. So you can scan in one shot what all the Arcade scores are, or the Mame. The distinction is made in this column because it is not an exact comparison between Arcade and Mame for example. No assumption should be made that we are mixing per say, that is what the platform column helps to deliniate. The kind of evidence or verification is in the source column. So, in one look, you can see all the scores together, but you can also see what platform it was on, and what level of verification it has.

Now, I personally don't agree with your either/or mentality. You are certainly entitled to it. From the very start my vision had been to create an decent alternative for those who would never pay for submissions. As soon as TG started charging for submissions I knew there would be a percentage of people who would not follow suit. But I never intended to create a replacement but rather I have always made all attempts to direct people to TG at every turn.

Additionally, the list has helped to draw people to our community and offer them a way to get a score recognized by us. In the general discussion thread I have written a novel explaining where this list exists on the spectrum of possible lists. And I knew, that anytime a line was drawn that people would fall on either side of it. The list is an attempt to balance credibility and relevance. If the list was too strict it would exclude too many legitimate scores, but if it is too lax it equally becomes less relevant because the scores that are allowed had not passed through a reasonable amount of scrutiny.

I am sure that we trust each other and that none of us will ever cheat, but we are not dealing with us alone. We have a public that watches us from a distance. I wanted the list to be the place to post your scores, and that the list itself would lend a certain level of credibility to it because it was evidenced-based and passed through a reasonable amount of scrutiny. I wanted people to look at the list and come to trust that the scores contained therein is the best representative of reality as we can get and still keep it free of mere claims or questionable means. I truly believe that this list has kept an incredible balance in the light of new situations and has lent both fun and legitimacy to the list.

Trust me, I have made every attempt to help people get their scores submitted and accepted.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2013, 04:29:44 PM by corey.chambers »

Offline Scoundrl

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Re: List Submission Rules
« Reply #37 on: August 04, 2013, 04:58:06 PM »
For the record, I am not trying to pick on the DKF list. I think you have done a pretty good job managing a very difficult task..

-Ken
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Offline Fast Eddie

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Re: List Submission Rules
« Reply #38 on: August 04, 2013, 05:07:32 PM »
im pretty sure that bartop has a pc in it not a multiboard. i also think its a 8 way joystick so you may have some playability issues with DK, Tom...

i think it makes sense to stick to wolfmame for inp submissions...but what about a video recording of a non wolfmame score on a mame cab/bartop? i dont think it makes sense to reject that but accept a xxx-in-1 score (aux rule 5), as they are both emulation using assorted versions of mame, and arcade controls...not that i want to complicate things further  :-\

 8)
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corey.chambers

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Re: List Submission Rules
« Reply #39 on: August 04, 2013, 06:42:40 PM »
Thanks Ken, I appreciate that.

Jon, I understand that there are many mame programs and in reality they could be ok in theory, I am not saying they are not, but in the realm of Mame it was limited to Wolfmame for the list, because a certain measure of uniformity is important for this catagory/platform, and I really think that Wolfmame is very accessible on any mame cab that runs on a pc. If someone has a pc mame cab, I can't imagine that one could not put Wolfmame on it. So in the case of having apple to apple comparison, having one "brand" of mame (Wolfmame) for that category is important I think. In addition to all the reasons I listed. Allowing any version of Wolfmame is a great position and in a sense is an opening up of the TG requirement that limits it to the 0.106 version, making this list more flexible but still keeping it accountable to the category.   

The acceptance of Svarar's score done on a multi-pcb opened up the platform of Jamma. I wish I could say more in this regard but right now I think the list works well with Jamma standard multi-pcb, Wolfmame-only, and TKG-4 for Arcade. I think this helps to make it accessible to a lot of people, anyone should be able to get access to one of these. Anyone.

So, if Tom is running a Jamma board or a pc, he should be good. And I agree, dk is harder to play without a 4-way restrictor plate. Since only one input is accepted in the game, a misplaced movement may hit the top input when in fact you wanted left. I had to deal with this for awhile before I got the nintendo joystick and what a difference it makes.

Offline tom bradley

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Re: List Submission Rules
« Reply #40 on: August 05, 2013, 12:59:11 AM »
Alright I have been talking to the buyer and It turns out the machine is PC based so I'll have to try and find out how to install wolfmame for it :(
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Offline Fast Eddie

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Re: List Submission Rules
« Reply #41 on: August 05, 2013, 04:18:21 AM »
looks like its running this frontend: http://www.gameex.com/

you can configure it to use wolfmame for DK if its registered version (20), but i dont know if you can configure it to record inps, you may need to run wolfmame outside of gameex...

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corey.chambers

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Re: List Submission Rules
« Reply #42 on: August 05, 2013, 04:40:30 AM »
Tom, just told me that all he has to do is plug in a mouse and a keybaord, download Wolfmame, and he is good to go. Getting his bartop arcade machine and a pc all in one. Nice work, Tom! I hope everything continues to work well for you  ;D

Offline tom bradley

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Re: List Submission Rules
« Reply #43 on: August 05, 2013, 07:42:33 AM »
I also just realized since its a cab/PC I can just stream like I do on my regular PC, looks like everything turned out for the best eh Corey!
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corey.chambers

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Re: List Submission Rules
« Reply #44 on: August 05, 2013, 01:39:00 PM »
Yes, it did. I am glad that you asked about it, and that any of us had an opportunity to talk about some things. Ken offered some good perspectives and Chris gave us the best explanation about roms and pcbs. So I think all is very good. I love how the community comes together to fill in the gaps and make things better than they are.