Poll

Should Mitchell's 1.06 million score be removed from the DK Forum?

Yes, remove Mitchell's 1.06 million score
10 (43.5%)
No, keep Mitchell's 1.06 million score
13 (56.5%)

Total Members Voted: 22

Author Topic: Should Billy Mitchell's 1.06 million DK score be removed from the DK Forum?  (Read 1153 times)

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Offline homerwannabee

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I thought of something.  Why are we keeping Mitchell's score on the board?  Now some might say, well because Twin Galaxies has it as official.
Here's the thing though.  My Donkey Kong 3 score is still official for dip switch 3 hard settings, and yet my score was removed.
So, what I am saying is this action would not be unprecedented.  We have already varied from TG.  So that's why I think the DK Forum shouldn't be held to TG standards.  I mean even the keeper of the DK list has disputed this score.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2017, 04:52:26 PM by homerwannabee »
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Offline xelnia

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Re: Should Billy Mitchell's 1.06 million DK score be removed from the DK Forum?
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2017, 09:02:50 PM »
Your DK3 game actually had evidence that could be reviewed.  :D With your game, it's easy to say it was played on this setting or that setting and reclassify the score. With mystery DK games played in the shadows, we have nothing solid to go on. I said something over at TG to the effect of: with Billy, all we have is a history of shady behavior but no smoking gun.

I started the dispute on TG hoping that new some information would come to light. Not everyone in the TG community sees what goes on here, and sure enough, Michael Sroka posted some footage he took at the 2010 IVGHOF event where Billy announced the scores. It was no smoking gun, but it did show Billy displaying two direct feed games (one of DK, one of DKJR) on TVs. That just adds to the shady factor.

As HSL moderator, my official position is to always follow the will of the community. I've thought about it and I'm not sure what kind of process we would need to go through or what level of community support would be needed. 100%? 75% 50%+1? And if everyone agrees, do we replace the 1.06 with the equally shady 1.05 mortgage brokers score, 1.04 KoK score?

It's also important to be very clear on what the issue is...are we removing scores because he didn't do them live, or because he didn't do them at all? The current DKF policy is to not retroactively apply our evidence standards to old scores without evidence, otherwise a lot of MARP and TG scores would already be gone. So. what hard evidence do we have? For Billy's 1.06, we only have a few sporadic shots of direct feed games in Sroka's video...that's not nearly enough to determine how those games were performed.

My personal feeling (which I would not use to make any sort of unilateral decision regarding the HSL) is, at the very best, Billy did not perform any of the Big 3 games in a live venue, but did so in private. This means the 1,047,200 seen in King of Kong, the 1,050,200 that was supposedly done at a mortgage bankers convention, and the 1,062,800 which was supposedly done at Boomers. I believe that, regardless of the method used to achieve them, those scores were made in private and saved for whatever dramatic purposes Billy thought they would be good for. I believe there is strong enough evidence in the available tapes of the 1.047 and 1.05 scores to question whether those scores were done on MAME instead of a real PCB. I'm not entirely convinced they're MAME scores, and I'm not entirely convinced they're not.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2017, 02:54:17 AM by xelnia »
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Offline QAOP Spaceman

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Re: Should Billy Mitchell's 1.06 million DK score be removed from the DK Forum?
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2017, 02:06:25 AM »

Seatbelts fastened please

 <popcorn>
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Offline WCopeland

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Re: Should Billy Mitchell's 1.06 million DK score be removed from the DK Forum?
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2017, 05:02:49 AM »
The ref who verified these scores is not a credible witness and is a proven pathological liar. Remove both the DK and DKJr.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2017, 05:13:07 AM by WCopeland »
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Offline ChrisP

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Re: Should Billy Mitchell's 1.06 million DK score be removed from the DK Forum?
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2017, 04:04:42 PM »
Quote
The current DKF policy is to not retroactively apply our evidence standards to old scores without evidence, otherwise a lot of MARP and TG scores would already be gone.

I agree with keeping it, simply on this basis. It's already stated on the HSL that scores from other sources are in something of a grey area when it comes to standards. If TG keeps it, DKF should keep it, if TG drops it, DKF should drop it too. Treat it as we would any other "imported score."

I would also argue in favor of keeping it on other bases, but the honest part of me knows that my reasoning would be on purely aesthetic and emotional grounds, and I'm not even going to pretend that my position wouldn't be fallacious. Ie, "it's historically important", or "removing it would make the scoreboard awkward," or "that's the score that most non-DK folk come here to check on" or "there'd be no DKF at all if it weren't for the documentary that arose out of Billy and his shady exploits," I'm not even gonna bother getting into those arguments, because I know that they're irrelevant.

Keep it, but by all means, give it some sort of asterisk, like linking it to the TG dispute thread. That would actually red-pill people on the controversy around this score far more effectively than simply removing it would. Let the user make up their own mind.
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Offline HugDD

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Re: Should Billy Mitchell's 1.06 million DK score be removed from the DK Forum?
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2017, 10:44:38 PM »
Keep it, but by all means, give it some sort of asterisk, like linking it to the TG dispute thread. That would actually red-pill people on the controversy around this score far more effectively than simply removing it would. Let the user make up their own mind.


I like your thinking ChrisP!  If B. Mitchell's score were to link to the TG DK dispute, then folks'll be able to draw their own conclusions.  In Jeremy's initial posts in that thread, he even brought up how that score has been contentious here on the DKF forums.  It's a bummer that we may never get full closure on that matter of this player's scores, and I must say, it's rather very disappointing that someone who holds himself so highly, practically even in every public event he attends, did so poorly at all the Kong Offs to date.  His achievements of yesteryear were spectacular for the time he got them.  In the present day, it's a whole new ball game and then some.  It's time to recognize others on their achievements, especially when things are done live, and when they're documented fully via multimedia.

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Offline Svavar

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Re: Should Billy Mitchell's 1.06 million DK score be removed from the DK Forum?
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2017, 06:06:55 AM »
Keep it. Agree with everything ChrisP said.
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Offline Josephjo

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Re: Should Billy Mitchell's 1.06 million DK score be removed from the DK Forum?
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2017, 06:54:02 AM »


  His achievements of yesteryear were spectacular for the time he got them. 

-Duc


What spectacular achievements of yesteryear are you talking about?

I'd be inclined to put a big fat asterisk next to everything under his name.



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Offline TheSunshineFund

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Re: Should Billy Mitchell's 1.06 million DK score be removed from the DK Forum?
« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2017, 07:19:52 AM »

What spectacular achievements of yesteryear are you talking about?



His hair.   <Billy>
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Re: Should Billy Mitchell's 1.06 million DK score be removed from the DK Forum?
« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2017, 07:35:48 AM »

Offline Josephjo

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Re: Should Billy Mitchell's 1.06 million DK score be removed from the DK Forum?
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2017, 11:59:48 AM »

His hair.   <Billy>

ROFL You got me!!

Fairly this time.
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Offline Mary McManus

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Re: Should Billy Mitchell's 1.06 million DK score be removed from the DK Forum?
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2017, 10:22:22 AM »
While your at it, Steve Webies  Kill Screen claim  listed here at this site  as "Circa 1989" should be removed and relisted as 2003 as there is no documentation or verification of any kind to support Steves claim. Seth Godon should not be able to simply "buy" this for Steve. The actual chronological order for documented arcade DK KS's should go 1. Mitchell 1982       2. Sczerby 2000.....and then...    Webie in 2003. That is if anyone cares to accurately document based on evidence  who did what and when.  Ben Joseph Walbeems KS  via MAME in late 99 or early 00  should get recognition as well.


Seems hypocritical to remove Billys 1,060 score and NOT Steves 1989 KS claim with no evidence.

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Offline Mary McManus

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His hair.   <Billy>

  Sho

Shouldn't that be Abner Ashman in front of that MS Pac?  Ya know the "real" WR holder on the game? Billy Mitchell, who's whole life is leaching off his parents hot sauce business and screwing over gaming competitors to get what he's got is very cute. Billy Mitchell's  self proclaimed "Gamer of the Century" is so na´ve  and "cute" it  makes me sick!
ROFL You got me!!

Fairly this time.
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Offline repoman

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  His achievements of yesteryear were spectacular for the time he got them. 

-Duc


What spectacular achievements of yesteryear are you talking about?

I'd be inclined to put a big fat asterisk next to everything under his name.

I wondered about this and so have been watching some videos, including that King of Con (which I hadn't heard of before) and Perfect Fraudman.  They are a chore to get through though because they don't seem to be too keen to make an actual statement.  Is it trying to say Billy didn't get a perfect Pac-Man?  Because it seems like it's just going on about him being not great at Pac-Man: Championship Edition which doesn't seem to be relevant.   It probably explains itself eventually but god damn it's a chore.
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Online Barra

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I voted no

Only circumstantial evidence at best despite what we all think (know)

Has a historical significance as well, as ChrisP pointed out

Now those DK3 scores, they aren't possible and should be removed immediately <Pigger>
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