Poll

Should original buttons with original roller microswitches be required for DKF submissions?

Yes
No

Voting closes: February 27, 2018, 07:10:30 AM

Author Topic: Should buttons with original roller switches be required?  (Read 1827 times)

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Offline WCopeland

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Should buttons with original roller switches be required?
« on: February 13, 2018, 07:10:30 AM »
In recent days, some members of the community have been accused of being "the real cheaters" for using buttons that do not include an original Nintendo roller microswitch.

For the record, contrary to what has been implied, my use of a Groovy Game Gear jump button has never been a secret. I have never concealed in any of my cab verifications that I've used this button. If anyone has asked what button I use, I've always been transparent about it.

I wanted to get the community's pulse on whether original buttons + original microswitches should be required for DKF submissions.

If the vote is "Yes", I'll ask Jeremy to strip all my scores from DKF. The poll is completely anonymous, and will be closed after 14 days.

Thanks all!
« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 07:44:01 AM by WCopeland »
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Offline lakeman421

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Re: Should buttons with original roller switches be required?
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2018, 08:09:50 AM »
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01AAUPQHQ/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Here is what I used for my last two scores.  My 1.206 was used with a button from Mike's Arcade, but the microswitch was the one without the roller.  My 1.19 I believe would be my highest score on all original hardware if any actions needed to be taken.
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Offline Kewydee_17

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Re: Should buttons with original roller switches be required?
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2018, 08:13:14 AM »


I believe the criteria for DK record attempts should be much tighter than it is currently

New rules:

1 - All credits should be started with a genuine US 1981 25 cent coin, verified by the US mint

2 - You must wear clothes that you wore back in 1981 or source 1981 clothing. These will have to be carbon dated before the attempt

3 - Only electrical power allowed must be from power stations that existed in 1981

4 - Recordings of attempts must be on 1981 or earlier video hardware

5 - You must have a fully grown mullet hairstyle. Any other haircut is an auto DQ (No wigs)

6 - The recording venue must have existed in 1981. Newer buildings are not allowed

These rule additions will greatly enhance the reliability of DK record attempts. And stop all the phoney submissions at a stroke. I hope you can all see the logic in this

 Kappa
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Offline LMDAVE

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Re: Should buttons with original roller switches be required?
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2018, 08:24:57 AM »
That amazon link button is the same one I replaced mine with also. The original button dry-rotted and broke.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01AAUPQHQ/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Here is what I used for my last two scores.  My 1.206 was used with a button from Mike's Arcade, but the microswitch was the one without the roller.  My 1.19 I believe would be my highest score on all original hardware if any actions needed to be taken.
Donkey Kong (Arcade): 1,108,100

Donkey Kong 1-1: 12,900

http://twitch.tv/LMDAVE
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Online Barra

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Re: Should buttons with original roller switches be required?
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2018, 10:24:26 AM »
lol
First player to get both highest and lowest score during a Kong-Off <Kuh>
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Offline jasonec

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Re: Should buttons with original roller switches be required?
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2018, 11:21:48 AM »
It's a switch....who cares?  What actually matters is "when" you press it ;-)
« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 11:28:30 AM by jasonec »
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Offline TheSunshineFund

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Re: Should buttons with original roller switches be required?
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2018, 11:29:37 AM »
Looks like the cutoff date for voting can be moved up.
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The floor was brightly stained
And larger though we grew in size
Not a thing was gained
The fate as so ordained
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Offline sprinter461

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Re: Should buttons with original roller switches be required?
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2018, 11:59:11 AM »
I registered solely so I could vote NO.

I've been going to the arcades since 1982. You might have heard of my local arcade, Twin Galaxies in Ottumwa Iowa.
For as long as I can recall...buttons and sticks have broken and been replaced. Many times with non original hardware.

As time goes on, it's going to become harder and harder to source OEM parts for various machines. Adapt and move on.

Think of modern eSports. Mouse, keyboards, controllers... players have a choice. A LOT of choices. Sometimes choice is dictated by sponsors at the pro level etc. My personal opinion is as long as the board is 100% correct. Good to go. Power supply, buttons, monitors... none of that should matter. It should be player preference.

My 2 cents.

While I am here...

Congrats to Robbie and Wes for handling the accusations like real champions. This hobby needs more players like you guys, as an example for others to look up to.

- Tim McVey -

Offline BillyGaines

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Re: Should buttons with original roller switches be required?
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2018, 12:01:32 PM »
This is clearly cheating and the Snake will get you for it!   <snek> <snek> <snek> <snek> <snek> <snek> <snek> ....  I'm gonna replace my button with one of these and I'll get over a million with no practice required.  Kreygasm
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Offline YesAffinity

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Re: Should buttons with original roller switches be required?
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2018, 12:05:16 PM »
FYI, there's replacement switches with a roller available:

https://www.ebay.com/i/282313507360?chn=ps

That's just one potential source, can probably be found for less expensive with a little google fu.  Part number is: V3L-111-D8

I found this out because one of these was on the jump button in my red DK and i recently swapped it out for an original switch, of which I grabbed (3) when someone was selling some on KLOV.  For me, I prefer originality wherever possible.  BUT in terms of acceptability, as long as its not a button providing some additional feature like autofire or something crazy, then I say no harm no foul.

The V3L-111-D8's are a noticeably higher actuation force than stock (noticeably "stiffer" feel).

On the flip side of the argument, however, we are pretty rigid about requiring a 4-way stick, so not sure how that should play into the consideration of a jump button.
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Offline WCopeland

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Re: Should buttons with original roller switches be required?
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2018, 12:13:48 PM »
we are pretty rigid about requiring a 4-way stick, so not sure how that should play into the consideration of a jump button.

With an 8way on an original PCB, you can steer barrels while climbing ladders. The 8way stick actually does influence the gameplay and give you an edge over the competition. MAME blocks these inputs.
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Offline sprinter461

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Re: Should buttons with original roller switches be required?
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2018, 12:27:28 PM »
Yeah I had heard that years ago... so any 4 way stick should be acceptable no?

Offline WCopeland

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Re: Should buttons with original roller switches be required?
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2018, 12:31:11 PM »
Yeah I had heard that years ago... so any 4 way stick should be acceptable no?

In my opinion any stick with a 4way restrictor plate should be acceptable. Looking at the submission rules:

Quote from: DKF DK Submission Rules
4-way controls are required.

This suggests if you wanted to use a Sanwa JLF stick with the plate set to restrict to 4way, it should be acceptable. In my opinion this is a positive thing because oftentimes players overseas, especially in Japan, only have access to candy cabs that have these Sanwa sticks installed.
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Offline zallard1

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Re: Should buttons with original roller switches be required?
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2018, 01:40:15 PM »
Voting no, because it is completely and utterly asinine to think that an arcade button without turbo or macro capabilities would give any kind of advantage or disadvantage. It is frankly a joke that this poll even needs to exist, because those accusations nothing more than a knee jerk reaction to Billy Mitchell's MAME generated Donkey Kong runs.

...if you wanted to use a Sanwa JLF stick with the plate set to restrict to 4way, it should be acceptable. In my opinion this is a positive thing because oftentimes players overseas, especially in Japan, only have access to candy cabs that have these Sanwa sticks installed.

I'm glad that this consideration is in effect, because banning standard arcade parts for an arcade run is one of the worst side-effects of the ultra-purist mentality (especially at TG), which ends up ultimately shunning tons of valuable competition for no good reason.

Offline KongTower

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Re: Should buttons with original roller switches be required?
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2018, 01:46:34 PM »
I appreciate the opportunity to chime in here.  I have two points that I would like to make and they are relatively independent.

#1: skilled play requires controls that operate in a way that the game designer intended
#2: controls can be modified to reduce the skill required beyond point number 1

In general you want to satisfy point #1 while not enhancing the ease of control too far.

The original Nintendo switches were never known for always working well enough to satisfy #1.  For this reason, and this reason alone, I think it is acceptable to allow someone to use any leaf or micro-switch in order to satisfy #1 to the satisfaction of the player providing that there are no active components to worry too much about #2.  If the Nintendo design of the jump button were not as problematic I would have another opinion.

As far as the use of a 4-way joystick, this can be a serious issue.  There are many 4-way joysticks, and some of them allow a closed loop on more than one direction at a time (IE: they are technically 8-way joysticks with a smaller window for diagonals).  This is the case with the Happ Super in 4-way mode.  Other 4-way joysticks are the same.

I would suggest that it is easier to get a high score with wasd for movement instead of a joystick because you can hold the up direction while continuing to hold the left-right direction and avoid frames where your character stops before climbing (or down) a ladder.  This is a serious competitive advantage, and I expect has been talked about extensively.

For this reason, I would suggest that it's not the jump button that should be in question but the 4-way control that infringes into point #2 more aggressively.

I would propose that the jump button be allowed to be any button that the player chooses that does not give any advantage to the player besides lower latency or more consistent operation than an original button (IE: autofire disallowed -- which could be used to prevent walking into a barrel at the end of a hammer).

However, the 4-way joystick needs more stringent rules to address.  For MAME/MARP recordings, firing directional inputs with two or more active directions present simultaneously for competitive advantage should be disallowed in each and every case.  For arcade hardware, it's a trickier subject, but I would suggest that each joystick be independently verified as allowed or disallowed and as often as possible, top players should use a joystick designed the way that the original donkey kong joystick was designed -- to never enable firing up multiple directional switches simultaneously.