Author Topic: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated  (Read 84710 times)

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Offline Sock Master

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Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
« Reply #150 on: February 13, 2018, 10:42:56 AM »
hi, i put my personal opinion aside from my findings, please dont think i combine the both together! I understand you can rotate the screen in mame, but my point here on dkf is to just put forward my findings that the DK footage was NOT originally recorded on VHS. If anything this goes towards the mame theory, but because i do not know exactly how mame draws to a screen then i wont pretend to be able to help in that area. But where i can help...i will!

when i said "fill the screen" i didnt mean it was altering the image size, i just meant it will not window the output as seen in the dk 1.062 video. If you read my original post on page 9 youl understand what i mean. The vhs viewable area is way different to the original recorded area.

Ah.  My guess (and just a guess so I never brought it up before) is that maybe for the 1.062 recording MAME was simply set to higher resolution screen mode and scaling turned off, making the gameplay slightly smaller relative to the screen area.    Someone could probably do some math to figure out what resolution it might be.   DK is 256X224.  If the PC was set to 320X240, lets say, there'd be a black border all around.
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Offline maximumsteve

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Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
« Reply #151 on: February 13, 2018, 11:30:05 AM »
 Joel asked me to post this regarding the situation. While I personally do not agree or in concert with Joel on many matters that have nothing to do with this dispute, I feel there are some points addressed in this message and questions that have yet to be answered that everyone should take a look at.... Thank you...

It is important to look at two areas of salient points from Robert Childs’ Video Analysis:

Relating to using a RGB to NTSC Converter to a camera:
1. The visual Billy saw on his monitor was the same as Steve Wiebe saw on his monitor.
2. Billy could not see the feed going to the saved tape while playing.
3. Billy had no advantage by using a video converter.
4. The only advantage to using a video converter was to the camera owner. A camera could not be knocked over standing on a tripod behind the player.

Relating to the legal and common-sense aspects:
1. Looking like MAME is not MAME, nor a violation that even approaches “cheating”.
2. The accusation of using MAME doesn’t make sense. It would be too much work.
* The risk would not present enough gain over the possibility of being discovered.
* Any player who could get 1 Million nearly 8 years ago on MAME would be able to probably get more on arcade than a mere 1,062,800 points. This is speculative but a highly possible speculation.
* If Billy was so well versed on MAME, when arcade scores became beyond his current reach, why did he not “retire from arcades” and go onto mastering “another platform”? Cheaters love attention … that is WHY they cheat. No one was close to 1M in MAME at that time. Why did he not do this? Fear of discovery? No. If he had put a computer inside an arcade cabinet, he would be brazen enough to switch platforms … because he craved the attention. Cheating is like an addiction … once you “get away with it’ the next time is easy, and oft times bigger. Billy has submitted nothing since 2010.
* If I remember correctly, MAME had a certain amount of lag on some games at that time. That would have been a negative for using MAME if it applied to DK.
3. Even IF …
* the prescribed method of verification at that time was put aside (which would be “changing the rules after the acceptance of proof”), changing the standard of proof after acceptance is an unfair standard.
Even IF …
* multiple eyewitness testimony is discounted (which it should not be) … when a dispute is involved and the tape is missing from TG “archives”, as it is in this case, when representatives present of TG at that time are not consulted or even “trusted” to comment their remembrance … then other standards that HAVE been used in the past (eye witness testimony, etc.) MUST be used.
This situation is NOT to certify a NEW record/score, but to confirm an OLD, ALREADY EXISTING score. Therefore, TG would NOT be violating their current standard of accepting video only to verify a record because this is NOT a new record.
The goal is to establish the validity of THIS record/score, already once certified by older standards.
Using the standards of the past when current standards cannot be met, mainly because TG cannot find the tape in their “archives”, that is NOT the fault of the player.
4. Even If ...
TG would dismiss the effort to find the video footage that was in their possession WHICH IS TG’s RESPONSIBILITY to produce since they initially certified the record … if they dismiss THIS record because they can’t “find the tape” then how many THOUSANDS of OTHER records/scores MUST they AUTOMATICALLY dismiss upon any challenge?. That act alone could start an avalanche of revenge seekers seeking to remove whatever they can because the rules “allow it”.
HIRE MORE STAFF, cut into the profits, the floodgates are about to open!
* TG has a responsibility to honor tapes that were once in their custody, regardless of ownership changes, especially if they cannot “find” a tape that was in their charge to protect. Once in their “archives”, whether they deny this duty, real or implied, it is their legal fiduciary duty.

SIMPLY PUT: NO SCORES involving once submitted tapes should ever be removed should TG not be able to put their hands on the tape they once certified as a legitimate score. Once they have it, it’s their responsibility. NO EXCEPTIONS. This is an ALL or NONE precedent.

If TG allows “challenges” without reasonable proof, they essentially are allowing accusations of innuendo and/or suspicion. That is NOT what the Dispute System should become … a grudge system to punish those whom one is jealous of and does not like.

I propose discussions to change this system. While one may agree or disagree with the Todd Rogers decision, the challenge issued to his situation involved a standing world record. Billy Mitchell’s score was no longer even in the Top 10. This leads to strong belief that this served no purpose other than to harm Billy and TG allowed it.
I propose that TG ONLY allows challenges:
1. On standing World Records
2. Require reasonable proof, not speculation, suspicion, or innuendo.
3. Examine the motives of the one submitting the challenge … search social media for harassment, threats, or promises of “getting even”. This is preliminary work that TG should do to prevent the misuse of the Dispute System, a “due diligence” to prevent “frivolous” challenges and to PROTECT ITS MEMBERS.

Example: one World Record that was thought “a fake” was the former (now #2) world record on Q-Bert. George Leutz struggled mightily but overcame that score after 84 hours and 48 of play. Even tho EVERYONE thought the previous record was fake.

Billy found out about this challenge as when most people did who do not frequent the forums by a TG Facebook post on Friday, February 2, 2018. Billy isn’t on Facebook, so someone had to alert him about it via email.

As it stands now TG does not notify the owner of the disputed record. It is up to the challenger to “prove his case”, and then the record is removed. It would seem that TG should have the interest of both the challenger and the challenged member at heart. Now, if a member is not on the TG forums and/or Facebook … they essentially could have their record removed without knowing about the challenge or having a chance to defend themselves before removal.
How FAIR is that?

The challenge of Billy Mitchell’s old DK world record, not currently even in the Top 10 is a prime candidate of jealousy and vindictiveness. Oh, Billy DID THE SCORE, but there is wide-spread jealousy because of the movies, personal appearances, the persona, fame and attention. Current Top DK scorers will NEVER achieve the fame the Pioneer did, no matter how high they score. TG should take challenge disputes rooted in emotion and personal attack into account and not allow them.

I propose these ideas as the basis for an improvement in the Dispute System. We all know how things will work out if Billy is proven guilty. How will Billy recover from the personal attacks, the embarrassment, the loss of respect, the loss of business and the toll on him and his family when he is proven innocent? Will TG or the froth-filled forum members even apologize? If they did, what would it be worth? Remember, video games are supposed to be fun, not blood sport that harms your personal life..

Offline Kewydee_17

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Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
« Reply #152 on: February 13, 2018, 12:31:47 PM »



Legal aspects?


Legal in what sense? This isn't a law court.


This is bluster from the off, trying to appeal that this could be a quasi-legal case when it is not. In the US you can be sued for anything instantly.


Looking like MAME isn't MAME?


So, looking like Arcade isn't Arcade if you use the same thought process


It would be too much work?


What does that mean? Define too much. An afternoon, a day, a week, months?


The risk would not present enough gain over the possibility of being discovered.

Only if you thought you might get caught

MAME had a certain amount of lag on some games at that time. That would have been a negative for using MAME if it applied to DK.

Not a problem if you save state. If you encounter lag, just retry. This could have been done over and over.

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Online QAOP Spaceman

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Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
« Reply #153 on: February 13, 2018, 01:51:21 PM »
Quote
What an idiot

I'll reframe that, no need for ad hominem attacks.

What an idiotic thing to say.

Quote from: Joel West
jealousy and vindictiveness.

Evidence and evidence.

Quote from: Joel West
Oh, Billy DID THE SCORE, but there is wide-spread jealousy because of the movies, personal appearances, the persona, fame and attention.

I thought dwayne did the score? It's hard to keep up with the nut-swingers.

Jealous of Billy's persona?

Jees-oh.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 02:08:01 PM by QAOP Spaceman »
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Offline RobbyMulvany

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Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
« Reply #154 on: February 13, 2018, 04:55:52 PM »
Man, ya'll making me create an account after lurking for months....dammit...

Quote
Looking like MAME is not MAME, nor a violation that even approaches “cheating”.

Then let's see a single other DK PCB that "looks like MAME" - just one.

Quote
* If I remember correctly, MAME had a certain amount of lag on some games at that time. That would have been a negative for using MAME if it applied to DK.

Not when you're using save states to get more blue barrels.

Offline RobbyMulvany

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Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
« Reply #155 on: February 13, 2018, 05:03:41 PM »
I don't even consider Billy's obvious MAME use to be his biggest sin. I think accusing Robbie and Wes of cheating with magical jump buttons is far more treacherous. And yes - Billy is the one that got the ball rolling on this. I know for a fact TriForce was told by Billy and NOT Richie Knuckelz. Those are the only two guys that would have stirred this up, and when I called out TF on Billy being the one that told him -  he deleted my post and blocked me. He never denied it, but he did deny getting the information from Richie.

To further prove the point that it was Billy - when TriForce made his ridiculous video about "the real cheaters" - Wes caught on to what TF was talking about, so he made a statement that squashed the incident immediately. TF looked like a fool. I contacted TF and told him I would vouch for him that he was sold a bunch of BS about these buttons. I too had heard about these magical buttons (from Richie, who said I was the only person he told). Since I don't know anything about arcade hardware I suspected TF was the same and just repeated what he was told. At this point, I didn't have any issues with TF, so I extended the olive branch (despite knowing he would defend Billy to no end) and offered to explain that TF was just ignorant to the button issue and was repeating what he was told. TF told me he didn't need my help and his reputation was just fine. That's when I knew it was Billy that told him. TF would have quickly thrown Richie under the bus, but he'd never throw Billy under there. TF was more than happy taking the bullet for Billy. On the positive side, it wasn't a head shot, because it's impossible to do that when his head is up Billy's ass.

So I believe Billy is 100% behind the "real cheaters" crap that came out - and to me, that takes him from being a cheater to being a scumbag.

Offline maximumsteve

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Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
« Reply #156 on: February 14, 2018, 06:24:59 AM »
Hello All. I am relaying this from Robert Childs as he does not have an account on here....

Here are the pictures of the two-bit converter board along with a scan of the receipt. We bought 2 converter boards over a 3 year period, 1 of which I have in my possession now. I am not sure where the other one is but around here somewhere.
Many have questioned the existence of a convertor as explained in the original post, since the setup in question was done years ago. But everything used in the creation of that tape is being brought together....

Offline KongTower

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Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
« Reply #157 on: February 14, 2018, 07:26:45 AM »
The challenge of Billy Mitchell’s old DK world record, not currently even in the Top 10 is a prime candidate of jealousy and vindictiveness. Oh, Billy DID THE SCORE, but there is wide-spread jealousy because of the movies, personal appearances, the persona, fame and attention.

Let's be honest here.  Billy as the character he portrayed on film is widely known as a douche bag.  If he and his followers fail to realize his personality defects, that is not the responsibility of people who have chosen to compete with one another fairly and in a dignified way (on the DK forum).

Current Top DK scorers will NEVER achieve the fame the Pioneer did, no matter how high they score. TG should take challenge disputes rooted in emotion and personal attack into account and not allow them.

That may be true.  Believing in this notion is something that might make Billy feel better.  The truth is that all top arcade game players including TG and the DKF are a nascent form of our future online universe.  The movie "READY PLAYER ONE" that is coming up is very likely related to the attention that is going into this discussion as it relates to Wade Watts' performance on Joust in the book.

The idea that Billy Mitchell's quote success unquote as a quote star unquote cannot be surpassed is quite dubious in my opinion.

I've brought two people into the world of video games and video game development.  One was my college roommate who led the first team to produce a video game that grossed over 1 billion dollars.  The other was a game tester I brought in from the arcade to Atari who is now CEO of a 5 billion plus market cap company responsible for approximately 5% of the revenue of the video game industry.  Both were individuals that I personally brought into the industry.

It is absolutely LAUGHABLE that anyone considers Billy so relevant from a parade or two and a villain character in a movie that led to him playing a little bit more Donkey Kong than he would have played otherwise.  I'm not seeing a lot of traction with this scandal and the public media improving Billy's image.  And let's be frank here, the difference between defamation of character or slander and what's happening here is truth.  People aren't scrutinizing Billy's image without due regard for the law.  The truth is a component here that cannot be ignored.

Billy Mitchell is known and has been known as a cheater ever since the movie Pixels came out.  That's my take on it, anyway.

But let's not be hasty and say that "the future is far more bleak than the past glory of Billy Mitchell."

One has an extreme case of myopia who believes in such obvious non-truths.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 07:28:30 AM by KongTower »

Offline gstrain

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Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
« Reply #158 on: February 14, 2018, 08:04:35 AM »
Hello All. I am relaying this from Robert Childs as he does not have an account on here....

Here are the pictures of the two-bit converter board along with a scan of the receipt. We bought 2 converter boards over a 3 year period, 1 of which I have in my possession now. I am not sure where the other one is but around here somewhere.
Many have questioned the existence of a convertor as explained in the original post, since the setup in question was done years ago. But everything used in the creation of that tape is being brought together....
Direct capture recording via a converter board from a DK machine is certainly possible and has never been disputed.  Xelnia accounted for what direct capture recordings look like in his very first post on this thread.  They don't look like what is on Billy's videos.  The only thing that looks like what is on Billy's videos is MAME. 

The board you show in the screenshots below does not:
-have a framebuffer nor can it change the order of frames.
-have digital processing to recompose the contents of frames
-have the ability to rotate the image as seen in the two older videotapes
-have the ability to rescale the screen to create large borders like the last videotape
-but it does have audio

Billy's videos draw partial frames the way MAME does.  Direct capture video still draws partial frames the way Arcade does, not the way MAME does. So this board was not used to make those videos.  Use of this converter board will not result in partially drawn frames looking like they do in the available gameplay videos of Billy's play from his 1,047,200 (the King of Kong "tape"), 1,050,200 (the Mortgage Brokers score), and 1,062,800 (the Boomers score) scores.  So it was not used in recording those videos.

In addition audio is clearly visible in the screenshots of the board.  Please explain why it was not used and why prior claims were made that audio could not be recorded with direct feed.  As previously explained, MAME audio available at the time was easily distinguishable from arcade audio, so someone using MAME would intentionally avoid including audio.
   

Offline SHLONKY

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Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
« Reply #159 on: February 14, 2018, 09:45:14 AM »
Hello All. I am relaying this from Robert Childs as he does not have an account on here....

Here are the pictures of the two-bit converter board along with a scan of the receipt. We bought 2 converter boards over a 3 year period, 1 of which I have in my possession now. I am not sure where the other one is but around here somewhere.
Many have questioned the existence of a convertor as explained in the original post, since the setup in question was done years ago. But everything used in the creation of that tape is being brought together....

Steve i think the issue here is that due to these pplnot having accounts anywhere thenthe info being relayed isnt really relevant to the issue!
What really needs to happen is that direct questions get answered!

firstly....the 2bits board has sound! why did mr childs say it didnt?
secondly... what is the PC for in mr childs dkjr board swap videos?
thirdly... why can we not see any wires that would link the 2 bits device in these videos?
fourth... only mame draws to the screen how its been shown, no video codec or anything would change this. So please explain, or recreate the scenario if we are to be proven wrong! (in your defence if you chose this option i would record every instance it takes to mirror it with a seperate videocam, to save yourselves from future issues!)

the answers we are getting relayed atm are very detailed, but dont really have anything to do with the actual issue! They are also heaily flawed in the fact mr childs spent 3 paragraphs talking about a chip that ISNT on the two bits device! At some point someone has to open up, because its no longer just billys integrity that is at stake here! theres others being dragged into it! If we are to be proven wrong then it needs to be shown....theres no need for a new movie explanation, theres no need for a live publicity stunt.

actually i have 1 last question for mr childs......why offer $5000 then follow it up with a condition that requires a lawyer? you may aswel of said " im certain but i might be wrong"!  if your 100% certain then youd offer the money regardless!

thats all i have for now!id like to point out that im still neither for or against, i just want the truth!

Offline KongTower

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Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
« Reply #160 on: February 14, 2018, 12:54:59 PM »
I think we all know if the accusations were false, we'd be talking about legal action instead of listening to red-herring arguments to questions that have not even been asked.

Anyone with money on the bet knows the truth by now.  Billy's character has been reduced from pompous to preposterous.

Offline Scoundrl

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Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
« Reply #161 on: February 14, 2018, 06:22:58 PM »
Not intended as evidence, just so I have an easy spot to place it... Cap from my cam on my cab 1080@60 according to the ios settings. I have no more technical information than that.

« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 06:27:10 PM by Scoundrl »
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Offline Scoundrl

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Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
« Reply #162 on: February 14, 2018, 07:17:11 PM »
Kong first this time. Camera oriented @ 90^

This all looks like problems with the setup. I dont have a camera that will capture with no loss at a rate faster than the machine can output.

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Offline qnz

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Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
« Reply #163 on: February 14, 2018, 08:10:59 PM »
Hi,

I tried to post this over on twingalaxies, but my ancient account can't post there for some reason.

Anyway, I wanted to say that I'm unconvinced that this frame-by-frame analysis is good evidence.  Note that I'm not saying I think you guys are wrong overall.  I don't have a position on that, but agree there's a bunch of other fishy stuff (board swap, anyone?).  I just think this video analysis is weak.

Why do I think it's weak?  I guess the summary would be that this frame-by-frame analysis of transitions is too new for people to be making such definitive statements about it.  My opinion, obviously.  But when I first read the initial post with the gifs, etc., I thought, "Wow, that's pretty clear."  But the underlying assumption there is that there's are always clear differences that we should see.  Some version of MAME always does transitions like X.  Arcade always does transitions like Y.

If you go look through some video, though, it's totally not the case. Some transitions in Billy's recordings exactly match some transitions in known Arcade recordings.  Reality is that even in a single recording, there are a number of different transitions seen.  Triforce posted a video earlier pointing out the same thing, so I won't go into it more.

Then there's Jace Hall on TG basically saying how he's an expert in all things video, and after a bunch of analysis, they're pretty sure that the oil can should never appear without DK in the frame as well.  In an amazing bit of timing, he then posts
Quote
...we believe we have now successfully identified and have nearly definitively confirmed...
and
Quote
Any type of signal conversion from RGB to NTSC (or otherwise) from an unmodified Original Donkey Kong PCB can not produce an image of the Oil Barrel without the Donkey Kong character present, since that image does not ever exist in the original signal.
Note the "or otherwise" there.  This is posted roughly 20 minutes _after_ Scoundrl has shown counter-evidence.  But that's okay!  20 minutes after that, he explains it away as CRT effects.  Fine, I can believe that.  But then, he continues:
Quote
It is important to understand that this can not happen in a direct-feed scenario. An RGB to NTSC conversion going straight to VHS tape never has this moment in the signal. There are no CRT phosphors to hold a partial image for 1/60th of a second and the framerate / field recording is exactly the incoming signal with no image recomposition being performed. The above appears to be a visual artifact and image that got created by the external camera being out of sync with an actual video display.
Ummm, what exactly are we looking at in the video of Billy's 1.047M game?  Yeah, a camera recording an image from a CRT monitor.  At least, that's what it looks like to me.  What about the footage from the Big Bang event?  Very obviously CRTs.  (The 1.050M game does look more like an LCD to me, but I have no idea whether that should introduce similar artifacts or not.)


What seems (to me) to be happening is that people have already decided that Billy's tapes are bogus.  And now they're "proving" what they've already decided, so fail to be properly skeptical of their methods.

You know what this really reminds me of?  The completely bogus analysis of Steve Weibe's tape from KoK.  Here it is, take a listen, even if you've already heard it before:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdTjaF1eEqo

Listen to how confident Brian and Dwayne are about the "altered board aspects" and how wild barrels on level 5 should act differently. They're completely sure something is wrong and wild barrels should be 'faster'.  But a decade later, after disassembly and code analysis, along with tons of play by lots of people, we know the truth.  They are dead wrong.  That is exactly how wild barrels on level 5 are supposed to work.  Again: They are convinced they're right, but are completely wrong.

Are you guys doing the same thing now with this board transition analysis and rendering aspects?  I don't claim to know, but it smells kinda similar to me.  Everyone seems to be very sure that Billy's tapes shouldn't look the way they do.

As I said above, I'm not saying you're wrong overall, or even specifically about this frame-by-frame video stuff.  I just think there are very serious flaws in the argument.


Todd

Offline dwayne

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Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
« Reply #164 on: February 15, 2018, 12:13:54 AM »
todd   ok i admit i was wrong but what about the 8 way joystick he was playing with on his double donkey kong board on that video.  You did not give the whole story from the evidence. Weibe did cheat not the same fraud as bill surely you have to agree to that.  dwayne