Author Topic: List Submission Rules  (Read 23122 times)

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corey.chambers

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Re: List Submission Rules
« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2013, 02:23:12 PM »
Thanks guys. So for now we are only going to allow DK that is played on the TKG-4 and the multi-board cabs. If it is played on a TKG-4 it is listed as Arcade, and if it is played on a multi-board then it is listed as Arcade(multi). This is not new, this was already decided, I just had this question about the TKG-3 and other platforms that may emulate the game as the US Set 1. In fact the submission rules only states an original cab, and does not state TKG-4, so now I can add that. And as I have said before this list belongs to all of us. Not one change has been made to this list unless it was suggested, or not removed if contested. In fact, to date, nothing has ever been removed, but only clarifications offered.

Offline tom bradley

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Re: List Submission Rules
« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2013, 05:22:54 AM »
Corey does this look eligible for submitting scores?

Arcade XS 2 Player Multi Game Arcade Machine

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corey.chambers

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Re: List Submission Rules
« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2013, 06:11:25 AM »
For Arcade submissions it would need the TKG-4 or multi-pcb.

For Mame submissions the Wolfmame program must be used.

This machine that you got may have a JAMMA multi-pcb. Note the last picture on this link: http://www.arcadomaniashop.com/Deluxe-19inch-TFT-2100-IN-1-XS-Arcade-Cabinet

So it is probably a 2100 in 1 multi-pcb. It has been supposed by the community in general that there are no emulation differences between the multi-pcb and the TKG-4 that uses the US Set 1. There has been no discussion about the kind of cabinet that the game must be played on such as an upright  verses a cocktail, or any other monitor/joystick configuration.

Take Svarar's submission for example, he used a multi-pcb, (the specifics about that pcb is unknown) but it was in an upright cab, and I am not sure the kind of joystick that was used. The position of the monitor has never been a question, and the kind of joystick that is used has never been limited to an original nintendo joystick with/without 4 way restrictor - because the game only takes one input at a time and I do not believe that no restrictor plate offers any advantage at all, but possibly a disadvantage.

We would need to see the JAMMA board on the inside to make sure. And see the game play with the "Nintendo of America" on the opening screen. JAMMA meaning "Japan Amusement Machine and Marketing Association" which is a kind of standard in Arcade machines.

If all the above is correct, I preliminary state that it will depend upon the responses of the community. If no responses are given, it will be interpreted as if they agree with the rules as they stand, or agree with how the rules here are being applied.

I have not decided the matter. If the software and hardware configuration of the pcb is the same as that of Svarar, then I don't think I could reject a submission simply because a different monitor and different joystick is being used in a much more conservative "cab".

I am open to any and all comments on the matter.

P.S. Maybe we should use the designations of Mame/Arcade/Mulit-PCB. Making the Arcade submission exclusively the TKG-4.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2013, 06:13:22 AM by corey.chambers »

Offline tom bradley

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Re: List Submission Rules
« Reply #18 on: August 04, 2013, 06:16:31 AM »
I'll learn more when It arrives but I'm pretty sure there's just a PC inside of the cabinet therefore it is just doing what any of us would do to play mame on a computer.
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corey.chambers

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Re: List Submission Rules
« Reply #19 on: August 04, 2013, 06:41:46 AM »
Tom, this would not help your case. If it is a JAMMA multi-pcb then that is a step in the right direction, but if it is a computer inside that is running any version of mame other than Wolfmame, then it is not eligible for a mame submission. I do not accept mame submissions from any other mame program other than Wolfmame. And depending on the type of computer, you may or may not be able to install wolfmame on it. But like I said, once you open the back we may find the JAMMA, like I shared in the link. We shall see.

Offline tom bradley

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Re: List Submission Rules
« Reply #20 on: August 04, 2013, 07:12:46 AM »
Ah lets hope it is JAMMA then! But if you dont mind me asking why is woldmame the only version of mame that is allowed even though they all play the game the same way? Because it would be a real shame If I was unable to submit any of my scores.
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Offline Scoundrl

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Re: List Submission Rules
« Reply #21 on: August 04, 2013, 07:38:09 AM »
Ah lets hope it is JAMMA then! But if you dont mind me asking why is woldmame the only version of mame that is allowed even though they all play the game the same way? Because it would be a real shame If I was unable to submit any of my scores.

Not allowing regular MAME submissions on this community driven list is about as silly as the current TG rule about power supplies (which of course is only a rule on paper and any submission using and power supply will be accepted).

If your machine is a PC based solution then with a little work you could set it up so that donkey kong runs wolfmame. Most all the front ends allow for using different different emulators tro run different titles. It may take soem tinkering but I am pretty confident it can be done.

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corey.chambers

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Re: List Submission Rules
« Reply #22 on: August 04, 2013, 08:08:42 AM »
Ken, thanks for your thoughts. There are several reasons why Wolfmame was made the only acceptable emulator.

1) I can use the wlfviewer to do a check sum and see the emulation speed.

2) I can ensure that no cheats were used.

3) If the inp is being recorded I know that pausing is not being used.

4) Wolfmame .106 is the only version that is acceptable to TG, and keeping to Wolfmame in general may help encourage people to submit their scores to TG.

I am sure that others could come up with some other reasons as well.

Instead of just referring to something as "silly" why not share the reasons behind your suggestions. This is the List Submission Rules thread, so if you have any rule recommendations this is the place to do it. Did you participate in this discussion when this part of the criteria was being created?
« Last Edit: August 04, 2013, 08:15:16 AM by corey.chambers »

Offline tom bradley

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Re: List Submission Rules
« Reply #23 on: August 04, 2013, 08:32:20 AM »
Corey no offense but if I show that the settings are all correct and provide a video that shows that say for example I was playing on 2 man setting with bonus at 7K shouldn't it be elligible for a score subbmission? And if what I did wasn't good enough you couls mention something i should do and then I would do that to prove that I have done no method of cheating?

Hope that makes sence :D
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Offline f_symbols

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Re: List Submission Rules
« Reply #24 on: August 04, 2013, 08:56:44 AM »
Opinions Follow, Tread Lightly:

Relevance is key with a scoreboard; I personally would prefer a shorter list of Verified "cheat proof" scores over a longer list of potentially "in-comparable" scores.  The fact that this list isn't the TG list doesn't imply that our level of scrutiny be any lower.  I see the valid issues with modern versions of mame or other Xin1 emulators; The potential to cheat with modern mame versions and the gameplay differences of various emulators has been discussed thoroughly, both Dean and Hank have given their opinions on the matter. 

We must realize that scores such as Svavars' and Robbies' were "grandfathered" into the list due to general community acceptance, previous proven performance (in accepted venues WCR2), and during the developmental phase of the rules that govern this scoreboard.  The acceptance of these scores are not a precedence for further "bending of the rules" they were exceptions, and should only be viewed as such.  Both Robbie and Svavar understand the rules that govern the HSL of DKF and neither had issues with the potential DQ of their scores from the list; Svavar even went so far as tho ask that it be removed, to prevent controversy. 

My opinions would vary if access to the REQUIRED version of wolfmame cost money, but anyone with a computer can get the right version of wolf and the correct us set 1 roms;  NO ONE is IN ANY WAY prevented or limited in their access to a potentially valid score. 

That last sentence sums everything up;  We have agreed upon a "cheat proof" version of mame, that is READILY available for anyone to download, FOR FREE.  If you feel the need to go above and beyond and buy a cab for your personal arcade, then by all means do so,  Just know that you need a TKG4 boardset for your submissions to be valid.  I totally understand the appeal of Xin1 emulators for space, price, etc.

Bottom Line:  If you want to play on an Xin1 or have reasons to play DK on other versions of mame, by all means go ahead and do it, just know those scores aren't not valid on the DKF HSL, for reasons that have been beaten to death by the TOP players in this game. If you want a score on the scoreboard, then either download wolfmame FOR FREE, or buy a TKG4 boardset. 

If you can afford a cab, then that is a personal luxury that you choose to acquire; simply spending X-hundred dollars on a cab doesn't mean its' scores should be valid.   That is like giving special privilege to those who can afford any type of MAME or Multi Cab and that's bat shit crazy. 

The required versions of mame are free, allowing any input type you want, on any screen you want, how much more flexibility do we need?  Just download it and put up a score or play on a TKG4 boardset, and forget about the grandfathered scores, they have no relevance for future submissions.

-Fin
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corey.chambers

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Re: List Submission Rules
« Reply #25 on: August 04, 2013, 09:07:52 AM »
I agree with Ethan that the list already offers a lot more flexibility than TG, but it needs to stay relevant. But Ethan Auxiliary rule #5 states:

5.   Scores that were achieved on a 3 in 1 machine or multi-pcb will be acceptable if the whole video is available demonstrating that continues were not utilized, unless there is other supporting evidence.

It has been accepted provisionally, granted that no evidence has been offered to show that a multi-pcb plays any differently, otherwise Svarar's score would not be there.

The rules are flexible enough, but in the light of the acceptance of multi-pcb opens up the discussion concerning this possibly JAMMA ran conservative cab that Tom just purchased.

Tom, only Wolfmame submissions will be accepted at this time. It is impractical for me to navigate and thoroughly learn every mame program that has or ever will exist. This list is Wolfmame only for mame submissions. To date, there has never been a non-wolfmame submission, owing to the fact that most of us already use it for TG purposes.

EDIT: The DK HSL notes that Svarar's score was done on a multi-pcb. As long as the x in 1 JAMMA boards emulate the game perfectly, as does the TKG-4 and Wolfmame. That is why I suggested that we change the platform language from Arcade/Arcade(multi-pcb)/Mame to Arcade/Multi-PCB/Mame so that all Arcade submissions must be TKG-4.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2013, 09:13:14 AM by corey.chambers »

Offline f_symbols

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Re: List Submission Rules
« Reply #26 on: August 04, 2013, 09:18:22 AM »
well the 3in1 boards were actually released by namco, it doesn't necessarily remove all doubt about rom versions, but it's likely that the proper licensing led to accurate versions of the software being included.  http://www.joystiq.com/2004/10/15/namcos-new-3-in-1-retro-cabinet-featuring-donkey-kong-donkey/


Here is the OP manual, which lists the board as a JAMMA board: http://arcarc.xmission.com/PDF_Arcade_Manuals_and_Schematics/DK_DK-JR_Mario_Bros_Combo_by_Namco_2005.pdf


I never really understood why we accepted Xin1 otherwise, I was under the impression that the acceptance of Svavars score was due to a previously verified performance on the same machine (his entire wcr2 game was reviewed and posted on the same cab), the fact that the arcade owner said what the settings were on the machine, and that he had a live audience and some video footage of the event from multiple cameras. 
« Last Edit: August 04, 2013, 09:23:52 AM by f_symbols »
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corey.chambers

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Re: List Submission Rules
« Reply #27 on: August 04, 2013, 09:20:20 AM »
Another thing that I think Ethan is saying is that the list develops due to extraordinary issues. In the case of Svarar, his score that was originally on the list, that was not one million, was multi-pcb but I didn't know that until later. It was at this time that he wanted or at least requested to have it removed if it would cause any problems. So we all discussed the matter both before and after that multi-pcb would be allowed for score submissions on the list. Svarar was not really an exception as much as it was an undiscussed matter that would later add further development to the list. Because, point of fact, if the multi-pcb does emulate the game perfectly as I think it does, then it is a legitimate score which is verifiable. This is true of other emulators but I may not have the same level of verification with other emulators and I certainly can't allow less verification. I think that the list rules are fine just as they are concerning Wolfmame because it offers no real impediment to anyone since it is free and easily accessible, I even have a video showing how to use it.

corey.chambers

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Re: List Submission Rules
« Reply #28 on: August 04, 2013, 09:25:25 AM »
Yes, there were multiple factors that added credibility to Svarar's score, but it was the issue concerning emulation of a multi-pcb that was a point of discussion. At that time, all those who participated in the discussion, supported the idea of multi-pcb as long as we knew that continues were not being used. In the case of Svarar, we accepted other supporting evidences since we had a video that did not show the whole game, and it did not show a restart to show 3+1 men settings.

corey.chambers

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Re: List Submission Rules
« Reply #29 on: August 04, 2013, 10:14:57 AM »
So, this raises some other issues that are not explicitly stated in the rules which I would like to add if at all possible.

We could ultimately accept the following:

1) Arcade (TKG-4)
2) Mame (Wolfmame only)
3) Jamma (multi-pcb)

We would also specify that we would allow the following:

1) Save kit from Blazen Technology
2) Multi-pcb switcher
3) Jamma adopter

How do you guys feel about this?